Steroids in the Hall!

[I.J. Reilly]

In yesterday's NYT Zev Chafets, a frequent NYT contributor and author of a recent book on the Hall, argues that players who have used steroids should be let into the Baseball Hall of Fame. To make his argument he presents several players who have used drugs of one form or another that have helped them play the game which are in the Hall. At the end, he also seems to throw in an argument for legalizing steroid use in baseball.

My question to baseball fans everywhere, then, is how do you feel about letting juiced players into the Hall?

My feelings are mixed. On the one hand, for many years steroid use wasn't illegal in baseball. What MaGuire, Conseco, et al. did for most of their careers was perfectly legal. On the other hand, baseball is nothing if not a game of history. Records are set and meticulously kept for the purpose of comparing one to another, more so than in any other sport. Steroid use gave the players of today a disproportionate advantage over those of yesteryear, rendering their records very hard to compare.

Personally, I think MaGuire and Sosa should be in the Hall for what they did to help save the game of baseball that the owners almost ruined. Independent of any of the records that they set in their time, their acts in that one summer helped give life and excitement back to baseball, something I'm excited about no matter how it was obtained. As for the rest of them, I don't have a firm opinion. Bonds will almost assuredly make the Hall, and I do believe that he was truly one of the greats (although I would still pick Griffey over him any day in a pure game). Rodriguez is making a strong case for his HOF election, despite his oddball antics (Madonna, anyone?).

Anyways, I'd love to hear what you think on the matter.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I think that it is insane to disqualify the accomplishments of players because of steroids. For the time that Mac and Sosa were using them they weren't even against the rules. Perhaps players that use them now should have that taken into consideration when their time to be selected to the HOF is up, but for players where it wasn't against the rules there is no reason IMO.

I have grown so tired of steroids. I have a hard time believing that people think it is as serious of issue as ESPN and sports radio make it out to be.

[il Padrino Ute]

I believe most of those who juiced that have put up Hall of Fame numbers would have put up Hall of Fame numbers regardless - they just wouldn't be as big. For example, Bonds wouldn't have broken Aaron's all-time HR record, but he would have had enough HRs to be in the Hall. Clemens would be in the Hall without the steroids as well.

[I.J. Reilly]

I believe most of those who juiced that have put up Hall of Fame numbers would have put up Hall of Fame numbers regardless - they just wouldn't be as big. For example, Bonds wouldn't have broken Aaron's all-time HR record, but he would have had enough HRs to be in the Hall. Clemens would be in the Hall without the steroids as well.

That's my belief as well. So is taking steroids enough to disqualify them for the Hall? If they took them after the ban is that enough to keep them out?

[wuapinmon]

I cannot agree that Clemens would be in without them.

[il Padrino Ute]

That's my belief as well. So is taking steroids enough to disqualify them for the Hall? If they took them after the ban is that enough to keep them out?

Once the ban was implemented, I think players should not get into the Hall if they use steroids.

[il Padrino Ute]

I cannot agree that Clemens would be in without them.

Interesting. Why is that?

The steroid problem started the year McGwire hit 70. That was 1998. When Clemens won the Cy Young in '97, that was his 4th Cy award. That is Hall of Fame worthy. He added three more awards afterward.

[wuapinmon]

I wrote this in December 2007.

"Baseball Porn"

So, think back with me. It’s 1996 and a guy named Brady Anderson hits 50 homers for the Orioles. I was astounded. Even though George Foster had hit 50 homeruns when I was an toddler, no one had done it in my childhood or adolescence, save the naturally-thick Cecil Fielder. But then this Brady Anderson fellow hits 50 homeruns after hitting 16 the year before. And so does Albert Belle, and Greg Vaughn, and then the skinny Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, and Barry Bonds of their Topps rookie cards gave way to the ham hock behemoths of the mid-1990’s. We all knew something was up:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5AC0A960958260

Anderson said he took creatine and had a lean physique. McGwire claimed he got his bulk from Andro. But was else was coursing through the veins of MLB in those days?

With the expansion to the five-man rotation and added teams in Florida, Tampa, Colorado, and Arizona, 46 guys who would’ve never been pitching suddenly were. There has never been an over abundance of excellent pitching in the free-agent era (save the 1990’s Braves), and it should be assumed that the dilution of the pitching talent pool would lead to an increase in offensive production. However, the numbers don’t really add up. Even with the weakened pitching efficacy, the homerun numbers have skyrocketed too quickly. Only Dale Murphy and Cal Ripken hit 20 or more homers per year every year from 1982-1990. Since 1990, I couldn’t even begin to compile a list of guys with TEN year 20-or-more streaks.

Hobbled by a string of injuries, Roger Clemens suddenly found new life and dominance as his body began to coordinate again with his immense talent. He won Cy Young after Cy Young. He claimed it was all the result of distance throwing and strength training and throwing on his off days. Amazing! He could recuperate faster from pitching by pushing himself even harder! It is perfectly rational to assume that a man in his mid-30’s can suddenly add 40 lbs of muscle through an intensive conditioning program. Things that sound too good to be true usually are.

I remember going to Braves games in the 1980’s. I was always thrilled when Dale Murphy drilled one into the seats. He struck out a lot, but he was a clutch player, the anti-Jeff Blauser (I like you as a person, Mr. Blauser). It was amazing to watch him. The best ball players I ever saw hit in the 1980’s were Will Clark, Bob Horner, Keith Hernandez, John Kruk, Tommy Gregg, and this tall lanky kid named Daryl Strawberry. It seemed like Strawberry didn’t really need to try. He was a natural batter. Though he ruined his career with a different class of drugs, had he stayed clean he might’ve made the Hall of Fame.

I remember one game in 1988, this scrawny little kid who played for the Pirates hit a homerun to the right power alley at Fulton County Stadium. It seemed like it was still rising when it hit the bleachers, like a Ruben Sierra homerun. His name was Barry Bonds, and he had the look of a great one. Another guy that my dad and I loved the moment we saw him was this short little catcher for the Houston Astros named Craig Biggio. I liked him so much that I bought hundreds of his Upper Deck rookie cards for pennies a piece. Biggio played his career, obviously, without using Performance Enhanching Substances (PES). He amassed 3,000 hits the old-fashioned way, by hustling on every play, by keeping himself fit and healthy, and by using his God-given talent to the utmost. He is a true Hall of Famer. He wasn’t the best at his position; he occasionally led the league, but his HOF-worthy feat was to be above-average for a very long time. You could count on Biggio in the clutch; fans loved him; he was a nice guy; he was respected by his teammates; he was not using.

But, part of me remembers the thrill of all that power, that awe-inspiring sheer power. Hitting a baseball is the hardest feat in the sports world; nothing is harder. If you fail two out of three times, you’ll be a multi-millionaire. And the 1998 season was amazing! Sosa hit 20 homeruns in June! Fantasy baseball was never better! Records fell. New heroes were made. The game seemed infused with new vigor, sparking talk of a new Golden Age, making us forget the vile greed of the '94 strike.

And then I think about how much of a lie it was. The guys weren’t doing it and earning our respect and admiration because of what they could do with what they were given; they did it because some chemist figured out a way to cook the books. Baseball on steroids is Baseball Porn.....a total lie, an overabundance and accumulation of signs.

So, I believe the Mitchell Report. The highly-overrated Andy Pettite admitted to using HGH for “two days” to recover from an injury, because he was outed. I believe that Clemens used something to fix his body, and then amp it up to superhuman proportions; he’s no David Dunn (think Unbreakable).

We all know that Canseco, Palmeiro, Giambi, and Bonds are tainted. I would recommend blotting out their records. Without steroids, Canseco was marginal; Palmeiro would’ve never gotten to his Aaron, Ruth, Musial level stats; Giambi would have his brother’s career; and Bonds, well Bonds is just vain and plain stupid. He would’ve made the Hall no matter what. He was a game-breaker. He didn’t need the steroids, but his quest to break Aaron’s record took over, and he let it. Take these four people, along with Sosa and McGwire, and make examples of them. I’m not sure, but I’d think that all baseball records should go back to their 1987 levels, and we should allow new records to be made. Forget asterisks, just don’t even mention any record (including Fernando Tatis’s astounding two grand-slams in one inning that will never happen again) that happened between 1988-2007. It would make baseball fun again, and allow for lots more excitement like 1998 all over again.

All of this steroid-infused Baseball Porn leads me back to the greatest player the Braves had in the 1980’s, Dale Murphy. I am completely biased because I consider Dale Murphy to be my all-time hero. His arm was one of the best in either league. Were it not for Mike Schmidt he could have been THE star of the National League at the time. As I said before, only he and Cal Ripken hit 20 or more homers every year from 1982-1990. He hit 40 homers once and 30 several times. He did make the 30-30 club back when it had few members (1983). He wound up with 398 homers. I'm not sure, but I think he is the all-time leader in home runs lost to rain-outs. That might be wrong, but I think I remember him passing Bobby Bonds for first place. He won back to back MVP's. He played in 740 consecutive games, the 12th longest streak ever. He was an All-Star in 1980, 82-87 and the top vote getter in 1985; he started five times. Murph hit .302 in 1983 when that was good enough for 6th place in the league. We cannot judge him by today's offense benchmarks. Imagine if someone hit .302 now and was 6th in the league! He led the National League in HR 1984-85, in RBI 82-83, runs in 1985, and OPS in 1983. He won five straight gold gloves from 1982-86 and four straight silver slugger awards from 1982-86. His number (#3) has been retired by the Atlanta Braves.

But he shouldn't be measured solely for his on-field accomplishments. Let's not forget the class and honor that he brought to the game. He was a tireless supporter of the Huntington Disease Foundation, the 65 Roses Club, MDA, Make-A-Wish, The March of Dimes and many many others. He won the Lou Gehrig Award in 1985 and the Roberto Clemente Award in 1988. He was never ejected from a baseball game (I think). He thanked reporters for interviewing him. In Philadelphia once, a stadium security guard didn't recognize him and wouldn't let him into the stadium. He just laughed it off. I can only imagine what Barry Bonds might have done in that situation.

Murphy didn't have an "All suites" clause in his contract, nor did he have his team guarantee him charter jet flights home to his ranch during the season like Kevin Brown. I mean, he even had kind words to say about people like John Kruk, Lenny Dykstra, and even Ozzie Virgil.I think we should point out that when Murphy finished 4th in homers in 1986 that he only had 29 homers. In 1987 he hit 44, but Andre Dawson had 49, so Murphy's awesome power that year was overshadowed in the NL, and by McGwire’s 49 and Jorge Bell’s 47. Homers were much harder to come by in that day and age. No one hit 50 from 1977 (George Foster) until 1990 (Cecil Fielder).

Imagine this scene: It's 1991, Braves vs. Phillies. Otis Nixon gets beaned by the Phillies pitcher next time up after hitting a homer. The bottom half of the inning, Tom Glavine has to respond and hit the first Phillies batter. Only it's Dale Murphy. He can't do it; no way. So he does the meanest thing he can bring himself to do; he throws Murph four high and inside fastballs to brush him back and put him on. Murphy got the base, and Glavine got the boot by the ump. Glavine said the ump later told him, "I only let you throw four, because that was Murphy and because I knew you wouldn't." It was not merely because they had been teammates, but because Murphy was so respected that he was off limits (by the umpires) for stunts like that. Glavine is a class act too, he's in the Hall for sure, and Murphy will make it somehow, someday, someway.

If anyone deserves to get in, without the numbers we're used to seeing, he does, for being the nicest, most polite gentleman to ever grace the field.

Murph's stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/murphda05.shtml

An article by a higher news source than me: http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick...4/1409552.html

[I.J. Reilly]

Once the ban was implemented, I think players should not get into the Hall if they use steroids.

What about those that had Hall numbers before the ban but then continued to use after the ban? Also, how do you feel about those that used illegal drugs, or corked bats or otherwise did things that are against the rules (sharpening spikes, doctoring balls, etc.)?

I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way so I am trying to see what other people think about it.

Also, I think Pete Rose and Joe Jackson should be in the HOF.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Roger would never have been able to be a part of the greatest radio call in baseball history.
[YOUTUBE]Fdtn0Z4o8cM[/YOUTUBE]

So Roger's roid use gets Susan Waldman into the HOF. Which brings an interesting question I have never thought of, have steroid users kept other players from blossoming into future HOFers? That might be extreme but what about all-stars or getting big contracts? Did Roger hinder the development of Hughes for the Yanks? What about some OF that might have gotten a chance with the Giants? That would be an interesting steroid topic to me, at least much more than who is using or who isn't.

[wuapinmon]

What about those that had Hall numbers before the ban but then continued to use after the ban? Also, how do you feel about those that used illegal drugs, or corked bats or otherwise did things that are against the rules (sharpening spikes, doctoring balls, etc.)?

I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way so I am trying to see what other people think about it.

Also, I think Pete Rose and Joe Jackson should be in the HOF.

I met Pete Rose in January 1988 and he was a total dickhead. I met Jose Canseco the same day and he was cold.....I paid him for his autograph and I asked if he would personalize it. He asked my name, I said, "Mac." He wrote "To Mac, Jose Canseco."

I paid him for his autograph and I was a total fan. I met Phil Neikro and Brooks Robinson, Kal Daniels and Brett Butler that weekend. They were all great. Brooks Robinson stood up and shook my hand.

They don't make 'em like that much anymore. I asked Pete Rose if he'd personalize it, he signed the poster and said, "here, kid" while he watched a Bengals game on a TV on the table next to him. He never even made eye contact. I had been a huge Rose fan before that day. After that, I realized, at 14, how big a jerk he was, so when Giamatti banned him for betting on baseball, games he managed!, I was glad for baseball. I don't think he deserves to be in the Hall because he sullied the game through illegal activity (even if he bet on the Reds to win, as he claims).

Shoeless Joe took money to throw a Series, even if he played well.

If Roberto Alomar ever gets into the Hall, I'm done with baseball.

[il Padrino Ute]

waup -

This is a better argument for why Murphy should be in the Hall of Fame rather than why Clemens wouldn't have had the numbers. As I posted, Clemens had already won 4 Cy Youngs before steroids started to be looked at as something that shouldn't be allowed.

Still, it was a great read. Thanks.

[Jarid in Cedar]

waup -

This is a better argument for why Murphy should be in the Hall of Fame rather than why Clemens wouldn't have had the numbers. As I posted, Clemens had already won 4 Cy Youngs before steroids started to be looked at as something that shouldn't be allowed.

Still, it was a great read. Thanks.

The most frustrating thing about steroids and the suspected users is, how good would they have been and what kind of numbers woud they have put up if they had not used. Roger Clemens was my baseball Idol from the time that he pitched in the CWS for Texas. I followed him religiously until his 3rd comeback. I believe the Mitchell report when it comes to him. I am not sure when he started using, so it is hard to see a break point in his career. PED's helped maintain himself as a power pitcher into his 40's, but without them would he have reinvented himself? His success in Toronto was a direct result of him mastering a split-fingered fastball. It was a devastating pitch and propelled him to the back-to-back Cy Youngs. He may have been on the juice then as well. But to stop his career at a point and say,"he didn't have the numbers before he started using" doesn't concede that he would have changed styles, approaches, etc. Heck, anyone who watched Jamie Moyer pitch in the last 80's and early 90's would have laughed at you if you said he was going to be still pitching in 2009. I think Clemens would have goten the numbers to get in to the Hall without the Juice, but he busted into the "greatest pitcher in the Live ball era" discussion because of them.

To me Bonds and Clemens are the 2 most puzzling users in the sense that they were already considered on top of the mountain.

[il Padrino Ute]

What about those that had Hall numbers before the ban but then continued to use after the ban?

This is where I have mixed feelings. There's a good argument to keep those out who used after the ban, but there's a good argument to put them into the Hall as well, as they would have had the numbers to get in before the ban was implemented.

Also, how do you feel about those that used illegal drugs, or corked bats or otherwise did things that are against the rules (sharpening spikes, doctoring balls, etc.)?

These are things that have happened in baseball and other sports all the time. If we're going to deny players a spot in the Hall of Fame for stuff like that, there probably wouldn't be a Hall of Fame.

Also, I think Pete Rose and Joe Jackson should be in the HOF.

I don't know what to think about Jackson. He took the bribe, but still played hard. If he had given the bribe back, he would probably be in the Hall.

Rose certainly should be in because of what he did on the field. But until he stops acting like an ass and admit that he is wrong, he'll never get in.

[wuapinmon]

waup -

This is a better argument for why Murphy should be in the Hall of Fame rather than why Clemens wouldn't have had the numbers. As I posted, Clemens had already won 4 Cy Youngs before steroids started to be looked at as something that shouldn't be allowed.

Still, it was a great read. Thanks.

Prior to 1997, Clemens was 192-111. He won three Cy Young's with Boston and an MVP, and for that stretch he was the best. He had had four back-to-back-to-back-to-back injury-plagued poor seasons. The Red Sox believed that his body was breaking down. He was 34. It was. Bring on the steroids and he goes to town. I think they gave him the nudge that he needed to make the Hall. Without them, he's on the bubble in some people's minds.