"You Gotta Love It Baby" Official Jazz thread

[smokymountainrain]

So far this hasn't been the case.

7 losses out of the last 8 is close enough for me.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

I think this is a pretty solid assessment, and it's one of the reasons I don't get worked up this stuff anymore. I've been following the Jazz very closely for a lot of years now, and I used to be one of those dogged "play the kids" types. But I've just been around that carousel too many times at this point to really believe it results in much. My general feeling is, at least to a large extent, players are just going to be what they're going to be, and that's not going to be altered much if you play them 15 minutes a night right now or 25. They may get to what they're going to be a bit earlier, but I don't think it alters their overall trajectory. Sometimes it feels like there's this assumption that players have this infinite growth curve if you'll just play them, but I just don't think that's the case. It didn't matter if Ronnie Brewer played 30 mins a night his first year or 5, by year 4 to 5 he was just going to be what he was going to be. And most of the times none of these kids end up being what you're think they're going to be, so it's just back on the carousel. What happens when three years from now Favors still looks awkward on offense? What happens when Kanter is the guy they dump to in the post and he's killing clock (as he already kind of does)? What happens when both of them still can't pass? What if Kanter's hands still aren't great and he keeps turning the ball over at an alarming rate? It'll just be the next round of play the kid behind them.

That is one of the things that has had me @#!*% bent on calling for the C4 to get more minutes for 2 years now. Say this off-season the team lets Al and Mo walk, it brings back Milsap, signs a solid NBA starting PG, and adds rookies picked at #14 and #21, and next year the minutes for Favors and Kanter and Burks go up significantly. It would mean another year of growing pains, players learning to counter when their go-to moves are taken away and how to avoid picking up cheap fouls when Nick Collison or Derek Fisher go cheap veteran style on you, and understanding what it takes to carry a bigger load over the course of an 82 game season. Those are things that you just don't learn until you get the minutes. When Greg Miller talks about trying to build around the C4 and it taking another 2 years...why not try to speed that up a bit when all you are doing is competing for the 8th spot any way?

And the other nail I keep stepping on with Favors/Kanter/Burks not getting more minutes is that yet again this team is going to enter the off-season not really knowing what they've got. Is Favors going to be Tyson Chandler, or can he knock off the rough edges with more post touches? Can Kanter actually be an 18/10 guy against starters? Can Burks be a viable option at back-up PG long term? Should he start at SG with Gordon at SF? And not only does it hamper Utah's decision making in the off-season it has also limited the potential trade value of those guys, decreasing that option. Utah might love all 4 and might think they can all be starters and significant players, but with such limited minutes I bet the league-wide opinion of many of them is pretty varied. I don't think giving Kanter an extra 8 mpg this year was going to raise his ceiling, but I do think he'd get to his ceiling sooner, and for a team that has been where Utah has been the past 2 years that would seem like an important thing.

For the talk of trying to follow the OKC model of going young, losing, and striking it rich in the lottery, I'd instead direct my attention to the bay. Golden State is playing Barnes, Ezeli, and Green this year in their regular rotation. They haven't had Bogut. But late last year they handed the keys to Klay Thompson and let him progress as the focal point of the offense, they got rid of a chucker, and then hired a new coaching staff. And they're sitting at the 6 seed with a young team, and even though Barnes has been a solid two-way player for them, it wasn't like they just killed it w/their draft pick last year. Having a stud scoring PG sure helps, but when I watch them what I see is a team that likes playing together, players step on the court willing to and confident enough to contribute, and the coach doesn't look stupid. Utah could be that team next year. But maybe they could've been that team this year if plans had been put into motion sooner. Hopefully next year won't seem like a step back or another year in a holding pattern if plans haven't been pushed forward enough this season.

[smokymountainrain]

and even though Barnes has been a solid two-way player for them

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still weighing my options on where I want you to buy me lunch, btw.

[The_Douger]

That is one of the things that has had me @#!*% bent on calling for the C4 to get more minutes for 2 years now. Say this off-season the team lets Al and Mo walk, it brings back Milsap, signs a solid NBA starting PG, and adds rookies picked at #14 and #21, and next year the minutes for Favors and Kanter and Burks go up significantly. It would mean another year of growing pains, players learning to counter when their go-to moves are taken away and how to avoid picking up cheap fouls when Nick Collison or Derek Fisher go cheap veteran style on you, and understanding what it takes to carry a bigger load over the course of an 82 game season. Those are things that you just don't learn until you get the minutes. When Greg Miller talks about trying to build around the C4 and it taking another 2 years...why not try to speed that up a bit when all you are doing is competing for the 8th spot any way?

And the other nail I keep stepping on with Favors/Kanter/Burks not getting more minutes is that yet again this team is going to enter the off-season not really knowing what they've got. Is Favors going to be Tyson Chandler, or can he knock off the rough edges with more post touches? Can Kanter actually be an 18/10 guy against starters? Can Burks be a viable option at back-up PG long term? Should he start at SG with Gordon at SF? And not only does it hamper Utah's decision making in the off-season it has also limited the potential trade value of those guys, decreasing that option. Utah might love all 4 and might think they can all be starters and significant players, but with such limited minutes I bet the league-wide opinion of many of them is pretty varied. I don't think giving Kanter an extra 8 mpg this year was going to raise his ceiling, but I do think he'd get to his ceiling sooner, and for a team that has been where Utah has been the past 2 years that would seem like an important thing.

For the talk of trying to follow the OKC model of going young, losing, and striking it rich in the lottery, I'd instead direct my attention to the bay. Golden State is playing Barnes, Ezeli, and Green this year in their regular rotation. They haven't had Bogut. But late last year they handed the keys to Klay Thompson and let him progress as the focal point of the offense, they got rid of a chucker, and then hired a new coaching staff. And they're sitting at the 6 seed with a young team, and even though Barnes has been a solid two-way player for them, it wasn't like they just killed it w/their draft pick last year. Having a stud scoring PG sure helps, but when I watch them what I see is a team that likes playing together, players step on the court willing to and confident enough to contribute, and the coach doesn't look stupid. Utah could be that team next year. But maybe they could've been that team this year if plans had been put into motion sooner. Hopefully next year won't seem like a step back or another year in a holding pattern if plans haven't been pushed forward enough this season.

That's exactly how I feel.

I just feel they have been in a rut and we'll enter next year still not knowing who we've got and what direction we want to go. We need a new coach imo, and someone with no ties to the franchise.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still weighing my options on where I want you to buy me lunch, btw.

I'm sticking with Thorpe that Barnes is the best rookie wing defender and has shown the offensive skills that say he could likely be doing what Waiters or Beal are doing on their teams. I think in one of his podcasts he said he wouldn't be surprised if in 3 years Barnes is the best wing from that draft. Of course...that is what it always looked like at UNC and it just never came together.

[MarkGrace]

That is one of the things that has had me @#!*% bent on calling for the C4 to get more minutes for 2 years now. Say this off-season the team lets Al and Mo walk, it brings back Milsap, signs a solid NBA starting PG, and adds rookies picked at #14 and #21, and next year the minutes for Favors and Kanter and Burks go up significantly. It would mean another year of growing pains, players learning to counter when their go-to moves are taken away and how to avoid picking up cheap fouls when Nick Collison or Derek Fisher go cheap veteran style on you, and understanding what it takes to carry a bigger load over the course of an 82 game season. Those are things that you just don't learn until you get the minutes. When Greg Miller talks about trying to build around the C4 and it taking another 2 years...why not try to speed that up a bit when all you are doing is competing for the 8th spot any way?

And I guess I just don't care whether that happens this year or next or whenever. You're not competing for anything in the next few years anyway, so what's really the point? It just kind of goes back to what I already said: Favors, Burks, whomever is just kind of going to be what he's going to be at 25 or 26 regardless. If you commit to the C4 as a unit, they'll be as a team in 5 years what they're going to be whether they go through the growing pains now or next year.

And the other nail I keep stepping on with Favors/Kanter/Burks not getting more minutes is that yet again this team is going to enter the off-season not really knowing what they've got. Is Favors going to be Tyson Chandler, or can he knock off the rough edges with more post touches? Can Kanter actually be an 18/10 guy against starters? Can Burks be a viable option at back-up PG long term? Should he start at SG with Gordon at SF? And not only does it hamper Utah's decision making in the off-season it has also limited the potential trade value of those guys, decreasing that option. Utah might love all 4 and might think they can all be starters and significant players, but with such limited minutes I bet the league-wide opinion of many of them is pretty varied. I don't think giving Kanter an extra 8 mpg this year was going to raise his ceiling, but I do think he'd get to his ceiling sooner, and for a team that has been where Utah has been the past 2 years that would seem like an important thing.

We made all these same arguments for Deshawn, and CJ, and Brewer, and on and on. I just don't really see it anymore. Playing these kids a handful of minutes more per night isn't going to answer these question, and getting them to their ceilings a year earlier than they otherwise would is not going to mean anything in the long-run.

For the talk of trying to follow the OKC model of going young, losing, and striking it rich in the lottery, I'd instead direct my attention to the bay. Golden State is playing Barnes, Ezeli, and Green this year in their regular rotation. They haven't had Bogut. But late last year they handed the keys to Klay Thompson and let him progress as the focal point of the offense, they got rid of a chucker, and then hired a new coaching staff. And they're sitting at the 6 seed with a young team, and even though Barnes has been a solid two-way player for them, it wasn't like they just killed it w/their draft pick last year. Having a stud scoring PG sure helps, but when I watch them what I see is a team that likes playing together, players step on the court willing to and confident enough to contribute, and the coach doesn't look stupid. Utah could be that team next year. But maybe they could've been that team this year if plans had been put into motion sooner. Hopefully next year won't seem like a step back or another year in a holding pattern if plans haven't been pushed forward enough this season.

Jazz fans sure have a thing for comparing to GS this year, and it makes me laugh every time. Not only because they're historically one of the worst franchises in the entire league, but also because that team isn't up to much and I don't think is in a better position than the Jazz going forward. And if you're talking about the way they've worked Barnes/Ezeli/Green into the rotation, I'm not sure what the real problem is. Here are their minutes:

Barnes - 25.4
Green - 14.4
Ezeli - 14.6

Our guys:

Favors - 22.6
Kanter - 15.2
Hayward - 26.6
Burks - 18.2

Our guys are rotation players, too. I get that none of our guys are rookies, but two of those guys on the Dubs we're talking about are already 23. Oldest in our bunch is still just 22.

Thompson is interesting, because he's actually one of the players that has kind of given me the "who gives that much of a shit" attitude. He played big minutes to end the last year and is playing huge minutes this year, and yet, I don't think we've learned a single additional thing about him this year that we didn't already know. Not only is he not a more productive player this year than last, you could actually make the argument that he's less productive as his PER is almost two full points lower. And again, two years from now, he'll be exactly what we know he already is. How big was the benefit was gained from knowing that in year one versus two?

I already posted this once on CB, but this is what Jazz fans would sound like if they were GSW fans right now:

"This team is going nowhere. David Lee is 30 next year, plays absolutely zero defense, and is still owed a ridiculous $45mm over the next three seasons and will crush our ability to sign anybody and will be impossible to move as his production declines. Bogut and Steph are fine when they're healthy, but they're never healthy and you can never count on them. Klay is a nice shooter, but he's taken a step back from last year and is still producing at +2 points below league average for his position. Barnes is all over the place and you never know what you're going to get from him and I'm not sold on him. If Biedrins and Jefferson pick up their options, which they will because nobody is going to pay them that amount, we'll be paying them $20mm next year to give us absolutely nothing. This team sucks. They're a 6th seed that will never be good enough to play for a top seed in the West and have an unaligned core and will be hamstrung by bad contracts going forward."

Warriors fans come at it from a different vantage point because they're never in this spot. If we were in the same situation, we'd just be bitching non-stop because we're always in this spot.

I used to get all worked up about this stuff and just don't anymore. In hindsight, the only real egregious error was Deron ever playing behind the losers we had at PG. Other than, I don't see anything that really concerns me.

[The_Douger]

I used to get all worked up about this stuff and just don't anymore. In hindsight, the only real egregious error was Deron ever playing behind the losers we had at PG. Other than, I don't see anything that really concerns me.

Don't you say bad things about Keith McClown and Milt "Trout Sperm" Palacio.

[MarkGrace]

Don't you say bad things about Keith McClown and Milt "Trout Sperm" Palacio.

Man those guys were awful. That was the last time I got really bent out of shape in one of these situations. McLeod's old high school coach posted on the Jazz board at the time and the dude was hysterical (unintentionally, of course).

[MarkGrace]

Most improved 2nd year big men.

6. Enes Kanter, Utah Jazz (.516, plus-.051)

Jazz fans nervous about a possible post-Al Jefferson era have to be sleeping better after Kanter's play this month. He's averaged 15.5 points and 9.5 rebounds in six games while shooting 68 percent from the floor. That's 68 percent! His wins above replacement for the month would translate to more than 10 for the full season, which would mark him as one of the top 30-35 players in the league. He did this in the preseason as well, but then when opening night rolled around, Kanter was somewhat buried in Utah's deep frontcourt rotation.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...d-year-big-men

[smokymountainrain]

Most improved 2nd year big men.

He's averaged 15.5 points and 9.5 rebounds in six games while shooting 68 percent from the floor. That's 68 percent! His wins above replacement for the month would translate to more than 10 for the full season, which would mark him as one of the top 30-35 players in the league. He did this in the preseason as well, but then when opening night rolled around, Kanter was somewhat buried in Utah's deep frontcourt rotation.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...d-year-big-men

I'm glad you don't see anything that really concerns you, because watching Kanter get 3 minutes in the first half - while Jazz and their starting bigs were getting killed - having played like one of the best 30 players in the league the last six games, concerns me.

[The_Douger]

Man those guys were awful. That was the last time I got really bent out of shape in one of these situations. McLeod's old high school coach posted on the Jazz board at the time and the dude was hysterical (unintentionally, of course).

I was pretty bent out of shape as well. Jerry being Jerry.

[MarkGrace]

I'm glad you don't see anything that really concerns you, because watching Kanter get 3 minutes in the first half - while Jazz and their starting bigs were getting killed - having played like one of the best 30 players in the league the last six games, concerns me.

Why? Are you worried it's going to ruin him? I'm not.

[smokymountainrain]

Why? Are you worried it's going to ruin him? I'm not.

Of course not. He deserves to play and I want to see him play. Not much more to it than that.

[Blueintheface]

Why? Are you worried it's going to ruin him? I'm not.

I'm guessing here but I think he's pointing out your comment that you "don't get too worked up about this anymore" and your obvious attention to every Jazz detail as possibly being in conflict? I see the distinction of not getting worked up about minutes/player development and your ongoing fanhood but I do think to suggest that you are not getting worked up about something that you are obviously quite invested in is slightly disingenous. Afterall, you continue to track minutes, you question to yourself and here on the board on occasion what perhaps the coach might be thinking. You might not get "as worked up" as others but I think you might find yourself at odds with coach's decision just like the rest of us. Again, that's just MY opinion and may not be his at all. And just for the record, your body of work here suggests you are among the elite on both knowledge and keeping a cool head about things.

[MarkGrace]

I'm guessing here but I think he's pointing out your comment that you "don't get too worked up about this anymore" and your obvious attention to every Jazz detail as possibly being in conflict? I see the distinction of not getting worked up about minutes/player development and your ongoing fanhood but I do think to suggest that you are not getting worked up about something that you are obviously quite invested in is slightly disingenous. Afterall, you continue to track minutes, you question to yourself and here on the board on occasion what perhaps the coach might be thinking. You might not get "as worked up" as others but I think you might find yourself at odds with coach's decision just like the rest of us. Again, that's just MY opinion and may not be his at all. And just for the record, your body of work here suggests you are among the elite on both knowledge and keeping a cool head about things.

Are we still talking about the Enes comment? I'm legitimately not concerned about the fact that he played 3 minutes in one half of one game, despite having played well in his previous six. To me that word indicates some type of worry, uneasiness, etc., the implication being that you think a degree of harm or damage is going to occur. SMR then said he was concerned, so I was asking him what specifically he was concerned about. His response seemed to indicate that he wasn't concerned either, so I just figured we agreed.

And generally speaking, I'm not concerned about the amount of minute the C4 are getting this year. Of course I would like it to be more, but that they're not each playing 5 minutes more per night or whatever doesn't particularly worry me.