"You Gotta Love It Baby" Official Jazz thread

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

That's a hard opinion to justify. Miles and Howard are shooting as bad or worse than Hayward, and if you step outside of just shooting and look at overall production as you suggest, Hayward's production based on PER far outstrips Bell and Howard because he contributes in far more categories than Bell and is a much lower mistake player than Howard. And defensively he hasn't been signifcantly different than the rest, and much better than CJ.

Hayward hasn't been awesome and has been very inconsistent, but on the whole, I think the point is no one has been significantly better. Also, I would argue, and have, that he runs the offense consistently better than anyone save possibly Bell. That's why he gets minutes.

IIRC, Hayward has the lowest opponent PER on the team.

The last game Hayward missed a lot of open shots. I've been wondering if he's suffering from teams just being more familiar with him, knowing his counters and how to react to them. But he's still getting great looks. I tend to believe that he and Harris have massive WoW problems. Harris is clearly using some unapproved substances, and Hayward strikes me as a guy that is wasting sleep on the headset with AK.

[Blueintheface]

Random Jazz Thoughts of the Day: Josh Howard, please refuse to go in when Corbin points at you. Tell him you're sick. Tell him you're holding out for a management position. Tell him whatever the Hell you wanna tell him, just don't play. I would rather see Frank Layden check into the game. Even David Locke during games is urging you to pass...I'm urging you to quit.

[Jacob]

I'm not a fan of Miles, Bell or Howard, but all three of them bring more to the table than Hayward. Hayward has a butt-ugly jump shot...I'm always surprised when one of them happens to go in. With that shot, he'll never be a good shooter. None of the Jazz wings are going to bring you a lot of offense, so you have to look at the ones that have something else to contribute. I just don't think that Hayward has a lot to offer.

You cannot possibly justify that opinion, and it taints everything else you argue. You're not the same guy that argued that Dirk has an ugly shot, are you?

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

Would Utah consider "buying" a top PG? I'm not sure what the going rate is for a PG that isn't in the elite class of Deron/CP3/Westbrook/Rose, but generally the rumors around trades for top talent mention some type of package generally involving the return of a young player, cap relief, and a high draft pick. I'd assume that when you're talking about a guy like Steph Curry or John Wall, the trade would still have to be impressive but definitely not to the degree of what it took to get Deron. Because of the Okur TE, Utah could put something together if they were willing to take big money back.

Washington is miserable right now. And they aren't adding any help via free agency next year because of Lewis' contract. Wall is good, but not exceptional yet. Would they move him?

Millsap + Harris + Okur TE + GS pick for Wall + Lewis

Washington would likely rather have Jefferson, but it'd mean less cap space in return. As is, they'd gain about $11 M in cap space, giving them a young group of McGee, Vesely, Millsap, and Singleton, their own high pick this year and the GS pick, and they'd have room under the cap to make one big addition via free agency. They'd also have far more manageable expiring contracts in Millsap and Harris than what Lewis would've been. Does that put them in a better position than keeping Wall, having one lottery pick, and no play in free agency?

Would the addition of Wall put the Jazz in the playoffs this year? I think it might. That coveted 8 seed and 1st round butt whoopin' at the hands of OKC that seems so valuable to management might make them consider being the final resting place of Rashard Lewis' career.

The trade could be altered to be Jefferson + Watson, which would then give Utah the option to amnesty Harris so the cap hit wouldn't be as rough. As far as other young PGs like Curry or Rondo, Jazz would have to give up more in talent because those teams don't have big nasty contracts they need to get rid off.

[MarkGrace]

What do they want for Ellis, I wonder? If Curry is healthy and they move Ellis for a contributor, they wouldn't be much worse.

According to multiple league sources, the two teams had a loose outline of a proposal–neither team had agreed to anything, but this was the basic heart of the talks:

* Minnesota was willing to talk about a package involving F Michael Beasley and C Nikola Pekovic in return for Ellis.

The sources say the Warriors didn’t flat out say no to Minnesota, but wanted more.

* The GSWs apparently asked to expand the deal to include the Timberwolves’ No. 1 pick in last year’s draft, which was 2nd overall and turned out to be Derrick Williams.

At that point, according to the sources, the two sides got stuck negotiating what the GSWs would do then to sweeten it beyond Ellis.

If they land something like this with guys who could be contributors right away they may not drop off much, if at all. The talk when the rumors first arose was that they were after younger building blocks.

[Jacob]

Would Utah consider "buying" a top PG? I'm not sure what the going rate is for a PG that isn't in the elite class of Deron/CP3/Westbrook/Rose, but generally the rumors around trades for top talent mention some type of package generally involving the return of a young player, cap relief, and a high draft pick. I'd assume that when you're talking about a guy like Steph Curry or John Wall, the trade would still have to be impressive but definitely not to the degree of what it took to get Deron. Because of the Okur TE, Utah could put something together if they were willing to take big money back.

Washington is miserable right now. And they aren't adding any help via free agency next year because of Lewis' contract. Wall is good, but not exceptional yet. Would they move him?

Millsap + Harris + Okur TE + GS pick for Wall + Lewis

Washington would likely rather have Jefferson, but it'd mean less cap space in return. As is, they'd gain about $11 M in cap space, giving them a young group of McGee, Vesely, Millsap, and Singleton, their own high pick this year and the GS pick, and they'd have room under the cap to make one big addition via free agency. They'd also have far more manageable expiring contracts in Millsap and Harris than what Lewis would've been. Does that put them in a better position than keeping Wall, having one lottery pick, and no play in free agency?

Would the addition of Wall put the Jazz in the playoffs this year? I think it might. That coveted 8 seed and 1st round butt whoopin' at the hands of OKC that seems so valuable to management might make them consider being the final resting place of Rashard Lewis' career.

The trade could be altered to be Jefferson + Watson, which would then give Utah the option to amnesty Harris so the cap hit wouldn't be as rough. As far as other young PGs like Curry or Rondo, Jazz would have to give up more in talent because those teams don't have big nasty contracts they need to get rid off.

I don't think Washington would do it. First of all, they can amnesty Lewis in the off-season if the want, though they'd still have to pay most of his salary for next year. Secondly, Wall is their best player and McGee is not a piece you can build around. I'm betting they still believe Wall is.

OTOH, they may want to dump Blatche as well, but then they are left with little. So let's up the ante.

Jazz get:
Wall
Lewis
2nd round pick

Wizards get:
Jefferson or Millsap (their choice)
Burks or Hayward (their choice)
Better of Jazz or GS 2012 picks
Jazz 2014 1st pick, lottery protected.
Memo trade exception
CJ, if needed for salary.


Now the Wizards have lots of pieces, save lots of money and the Jazz get the one player they could never otherwise get. If Wizards really want more cap space, they can still waive Blatche, who they are overpaying for the next 5 years, and still save on his salary when another team picks up his partial salary on secondary waivers. Jazz are competitive for the title after the 2014 season if they can re-sign Wall. Jazz are also over the cap next year, but they weren't making a splash in FA anyway, even if someone good was available and I don't think the new, more punitive tax penalties kick in for another year.

I still don't know if the Wizards would do it. Jazz would be dumb not to, IMO. Wizzards are probably better off taking their top 4 pick this year and continuing to build with Wall.

[Jacob]

If they land something like this with guys who could be contributors right away they may not drop off much, if at all. The talk when the rumors first arose was that they were after younger building blocks.

Moving Ellis for Beasley and that other guy would be a bad move for GS without another asset. Can't see them doing that. But this is the team that signed Kwame Brown for 7 million this year.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

I don't think Washington would do it. First of all, they can amnesty Lewis in the off-season if the want, though they'd still have to pay most of his salary for next year. Secondly, Wall is their best player and McGee is not a piece you can build around. I'm betting they still believe Wall is.

OTOH, they may want to dump Blatche as well, but then they are left with little. So let's up the ante.

Jazz get:
Wall
Lewis
2nd round pick

Wizards get:
Jefferson or Millsap (their choice)
Burks or Hayward (their choice)
Better of Jazz or GS 2012 picks
Jazz 2014 1st pick, lottery protected.
Memo trade exception
CJ, if needed for salary.


Now the Wizards have lots of pieces, save lots of money and the Jazz get the one player they could never otherwise get. If Wizards really want more cap space, they can still waive Blatche, who they are overpaying for the next 5 years, and still save on his salary when another team picks up his partial salary on secondary waivers. Jazz are competitive for the title after the 2014 season if they can re-sign Wall. Jazz are also over the cap next year, but they weren't making a splash in FA anyway, even if someone good was available and I don't think the new, more punitive tax penalties kick in for another year.

I still don't know if the Wizards would do it. Jazz would be dumb not to, IMO.

Not sure how I remembered the Jazz could amnesty Harris but forgot about cutting Lewis being an option for Washington.

I like Wall (as long as his knees hold up), but a potential package of Millsap, Burks, mid-lottery pick, future first round pick, and cap relief seems steep. But that is probably because of what I think Burks or Hayward can be, not what their actual value on the market is right now (again, another reason not playing the young guys more is a massive failure for the Jazz this year).

To me, guys like Curry and Wall are worth the good player + cap relief + lottery pick and future first, but not that extra young player. But when a team like Washington could amnesty Lewis if they wanted to get that relief and then just hold on to Wall, the package would likely have to include another young player and/or additional pick.

I do wish we could see if the how growth of both the young bigs and the wings could be accelerated if they played with a dynamic PG.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

No interest in Wroten as a point.

I'm not sure if he point in the NBA or not, but I took our good seats to the Oregon/Washington game and though he didn't play particularly well I was impressed. He was skilled, moved well and has a good body.

[UtahJazzFan88]

I don't think Washington would do it. First of all, they can amnesty Lewis in the off-season if the want, though they'd still have to pay most of his salary for next year. Secondly, Wall is their best player and McGee is not a piece you can build around. I'm betting they still believe Wall is.

OTOH, they may want to dump Blatche as well, but then they are left with little. So let's up the ante.

Jazz get:
Wall
Lewis
2nd round pick

Wizards get:
Jefferson or Millsap (their choice)
Burks or Hayward (their choice)
Better of Jazz or GS 2012 picks
Jazz 2014 1st pick, lottery protected.
Memo trade exception
CJ, if needed for salary.


Now the Wizards have lots of pieces, save lots of money and the Jazz get the one player they could never otherwise get. If Wizards really want more cap space, they can still waive Blatche, who they are overpaying for the next 5 years, and still save on his salary when another team picks up his partial salary on secondary waivers. Jazz are competitive for the title after the 2014 season if they can re-sign Wall. Jazz are also over the cap next year, but they weren't making a splash in FA anyway, even if someone good was available and I don't think the new, more punitive tax penalties kick in for another year.

I still don't know if the Wizards would do it. Jazz would be dumb not to, IMO. Wizzards are probably better off taking their top 4 pick this year and continuing to build with Wall.

The Jazz can't amnesty Rashard Lewis or any player they get in a trade.

[MarkGrace]

I'm not sure if he point in the NBA or not, but I took our good seats to the Oregon/Washington game and though he didn't play particularly well I was impressed. He was skilled, moved well and has a good body.

He's not an anything right now. Doesn't have the handle, decision-making (kid is an absolute bonehead), or ability to run an offense. Doesn't have the stroke to be a 2 (just brutal 3pt and ft%'s for a guard).

Right now he's a good athlete that can get to the hoop and finish and makes one brilliant pass that gets everyone excited for every 6 bad decisions and 4 turnovers he makes.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

He's not an anything right now. Doesn't have the handle, decision-making (kid is an absolute bonehead), or ability to run an offense. Doesn't have the stroke to be a 2 (just brutal 3pt and ft%'s for a guard).

Right now he's a good athlete that can get to the hoop and finish and makes one brilliant pass that gets everyone excited for every 6 bad decisions and 4 turnovers he makes.

And crazy. Or are you not talking about Kirk Snyder?

[Blueintheface]

And crazy. Or are you not talking about Kirk Snyder?

He might be the guy GM sees on the streets of Houston.

[smokymountainrain]

Is there a bigger Millsap apologist than Matt Harpring?

[MarkGrace]

Al takes some horrible shots.