BYU vs. the Cream o' Weber

[Goatnapper'96]

Why do you think Rogers doesn't put out on the defensive end? Is he just not defensive oriented, and it doesn't occur to him? Or is it selfishness? or does he think his energy is better put toward offensive play?

I dont get it. He seems a fine young man. Why can't he just do what the coach wants?

Likely his mother worked outside the home!

[KillerDog]

Katy, I think Rogers is a selfish player who is looking to get his and doesn't care much about the team. It's that simple. It is frustrating because he has the athleticism and skill set to be much better than he is.

Goat, I too would like to see Zylstra lose his starting spot but not because I think Brock sucks. I would love to see one of our more talented players put in the consistent effort Brock puts in. No one in the program has improved as much in the time they've been at BYU. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see Harrison, Winder, or Rogers surpass Brock. Any of the three could. Harrison has a pretty stroke and is the most talented but looks terrified. Winder's shot is worse than Brock's but he plays as big at a much smaller and quicker size and accordingly can get to the rack better. Rogers torments me. I can understand a player like Chris Miles who had physical ability but couldn't figure out how to make the game work for his tools. I can understand a guy like Tavernari who had cankles and therefore couldn't guard. I can sympathize with a guy like Martineau that just doesn't have it physically in any capacity. Rogers kills me. He could be the best player on this team but instead he is a guy who could blow up any night but instead will have good games just enough to keep you interested and will hurt everyone else on the floor any time he isn't touching the ball. Rose has mitigated it a bit by using him in the zone most of the time when he is on the floor and that mitigates the harm his lack of effort causes (especially with the right guys around him) but only Stephen Rogers can choose to change permanently into Captain America.

[Goatnapper'96]

Katy, I think Rogers is a selfish player who is looking to get his and doesn't care much about the team. It's that simple. It is frustrating because he has the athleticism and skill set to be much better than he is.

Goat, I too would like to see Zylstra lose his starting spot but not because I think Brock sucks. I would love to see one of our more talented players put in the consistent effort Brock puts in. No one in the program has improved as much in the time they've been at BYU. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see Harrison, Winder, or Rogers surpass Brock. Any of the three could. Harrison has a pretty stroke and is the most talented but looks terrified. Winder's shot is worse than Brock's but he plays as big at a much smaller and quicker size and accordingly can get to the rack better. Rogers torments me. I can understand a player like Chris Miles who had physical ability but couldn't figure out how to make the game work for his tools. I can understand a guy like Tavernari who had cankles and therefore couldn't guard. I can sympathize with a guy like Martineau that just doesn't have it physically in any capacity. Rogers kills me. He could be the best player on this team but instead he is a guy who could blow up any night but instead will have good games just enough to keep you interested and will hurt everyone else on the floor any time he isn't touching the ball. Rose has mitigated it a bit by using him in the zone most of the time when he is on the floor and that mitigates the harm his lack of effort causes (especially with the right guys around him) but only Stephen Rogers can choose to change permanently into Captain America.

I don't think Brock sucks I just don't BYU can win a NCAA tourney if he is a key enough player to play 26-28 mpg. I do think BYU can be very good with Brock being a 12 mpg sub, but I want Demarcus to be the starter next year. To me Demarcus can be Jackson Emery on steroids. Lock down defender who can hit a jumper and still penetrate. Brock, however, is to me the optimal type of sub because he doesn't suck and clearly loves the team more than himself and because of that will accept his role. I feel the same way about Josh Sharp. That type of depth is huge when BYU has to play good teams and having some guys to bring off the bench who have experience, decent ability and a hard core team first attitude is a huge bonus. Team with Stephan Rogers and the night Rogers is hawt, they second five might be as good as some decent teams' starting 5.

[creekster]

KD you are much closer to the program than I am and know more about BB than I do, but to me Rogers doesnt seem that selfish, but just on the lazy side. Defense is hard work and it fails a significant part of the time. I am not sure he is really selfish (although it looks that way due to his offensive perfromances) but I think when he doesnt have the ball he just doesnt work that ahrd. Moreover, I suspect he feels like he is working hard, but objectively he isnt.

It's like a kid who is smart enough to get an A in algebra but never studies hard enough to pull it off. The could has the abi8lity and the kid does work some, but not enough to get an A.

[Pelado]

KD you are much closer to the program than I am and know more about BB than I do, but to me Rogers doesnt seem that selfish, but just on the lazy side. Defense is hard work and it fails a significant part of the time. I am not sure he is really selfish (although it looks that way due to his offensive perfromances) but I think when he doesnt have the ball he just doesnt work that ahrd. Moreover, I suspect he feels like he is working hard, but objectively he isnt.

It's like a kid who is smart enough to get an A in algebra but never studies hard enough to pull it off. The could has the abi8lity and the kid does work some, but not enough to get an A.

I think you just described a selfish basketball player - being too lazy to give 100% to the team.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

Katy, I think Rogers is a selfish player who is looking to get his and doesn't care much about the team. It's that simple. It is frustrating because he has the athleticism and skill set to be much better than he is.

Goat, I too would like to see Zylstra lose his starting spot but not because I think Brock sucks. I would love to see one of our more talented players put in the consistent effort Brock puts in. No one in the program has improved as much in the time they've been at BYU. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see Harrison, Winder, or Rogers surpass Brock. Any of the three could. Harrison has a pretty stroke and is the most talented but looks terrified. Winder's shot is worse than Brock's but he plays as big at a much smaller and quicker size and accordingly can get to the rack better. Rogers torments me. I can understand a player like Chris Miles who had physical ability but couldn't figure out how to make the game work for his tools. I can understand a guy like Tavernari who had cankles and therefore couldn't guard. I can sympathize with a guy like Martineau that just doesn't have it physically in any capacity. Rogers kills me. He could be the best player on this team but instead he is a guy who could blow up any night but instead will have good games just enough to keep you interested and will hurt everyone else on the floor any time he isn't touching the ball. Rose has mitigated it a bit by using him in the zone most of the time when he is on the floor and that mitigates the harm his lack of effort causes (especially with the right guys around him) but only Stephen Rogers can choose to change permanently into Captain America.

I'm not going to jump into the rest of the discussion, but I will disagree with that statement. Zylstra is shooting it well and working hard, and clearly didn't enter the program with all-world talent. But he is still an atrocious individual defender, can't dribble, and can't pass.

Hartsock has turned himself into a consistent +40% 3pt shooter, a terrific help defender, a solid individual defender, and he's now executing post moves against DI talent, something he hadn't done in his previous 3 years.

Abouo is making 54% of his 3+ 3t attempts/gm. He started at a much higher defensive level than Zylstra at the outset of their eligibility, but Abouo is an elite man-to-man perimeter defender at this point. And he's leading his team in rebounding. He still has obvious holes in his game, but from what he was as a freshman to what he is now and what the team requires of him on the court, I'd say his overall improvement has been more impressive.

Those two might not be fair comparisons because Noah and Abouo have shown huge strides going from their junior to senior seasons. But I think you could even point to Winder who has been in the program less time than Zylstra and say he's shown more improvement thus far. Winder looked lost and over-matched in practice last year and again in Greece. He was a 2 who couldn't shoot, who had played little to no point guard at Gorman, and now he's starting at PG, defending well, limiting his turnovers at a new position, and handles the ball against pressure defense better than Cusick, Martineau, or Zylstra have.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

[creekster]

I think you just described a selfish basketball player - being too lazy to give 100% to the team.

In effect, but not in intent. Some people just don't seem to be willing or able to work as hard as others. I have seen this in my kids. I don't know why, but something about their constitutions are just different. If it was just a matter of doing what the coach asks, everybody would give great effort on D, but they don't.

But, maybe you are right and he is selfish. I will defer to BB experts.

[Pelado]

In effect, but not in intent. Some people just don't seem to be willing or able to work as hard as others. I have seen this in my kids. I don't know why, but something about their constitutions are just different. If it was just a matter of doing what the coach asks, everybody would give great effort on D, but they don't.

But, maybe you are right and he is selfish. I will defer to BB experts.

Hold on there, don't put words in my mouth.

Not that you were implying this, but, for the record, I should not be lumped in with the BB experts.

[KillerDog]

I'm not going to jump into the rest of the discussion, but I will disagree with that statement. Zylstra is shooting it well and working hard, and clearly didn't enter the program with all-world talent. But he is still an atrocious individual defender, can't dribble, and can't pass.

Hartsock has turned himself into a consistent +40% 3pt shooter, a terrific help defender, a solid individual defender, and he's now executing post moves against DI talent, something he hadn't done in his previous 3 years.

Abouo is making 54% of his 3+ 3t attempts/gm. He started at a much higher defensive level than Zylstra at the outset of their eligibility, but Abouo is an elite man-to-man perimeter defender at this point. And he's leading his team in rebounding. He still has obvious holes in his game, but from what he was as a freshman to what he is now and what the team requires of him on the court, I'd say his overall improvement has been more impressive.

Those two might not be fair comparisons because Noah and Abouo have shown huge strides going from their junior to senior seasons. But I think you could even point to Winder who has been in the program less time than Zylstra and say he's shown more improvement thus far. Winder looked lost and over-matched in practice last year and again in Greece. He was a 2 who couldn't shoot, who had played little to no point guard at Gorman, and now he's starting at PG, defending well, limiting his turnovers at a new position, and handles the ball against pressure defense better than Cusick, Martineau, or Zylstra have.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

The only part of Noah's game that has seen huge strides is is post play this year. He was an excellent defender and rebounder in year one and could always spot up back to HS.

I agree with the Abouo offense argument but defensively the first day he played I recall thinking, "Wow, that freshman is the best on ball defender on the roster, I didn't expect that."

I don't see Winder as having changed much. I think he has found the spot to use what he has. If he develops at the rate Zylstra has, he could be an all-conference performer.

Zylstra's D can improve but I don't agree he can't pass and is an atrocious individual defender. I also recall his first year with the program I thought he was the worst player to ever land on a D-1 team. In my opinion, he started worse than Martineau. From that to starter, even temporarily, is a big hill to climb. Good thoughts by you though and good analysis.