Answer me this one question

[Hallelujah]

how will universal healthcare for everyone reduce healthcare costs? It's estimated it will cost $1 Trillion over 10 years but will be paid for by cost savings. How?

[RobinFinderson]

how will universal healthcare for everyone reduce healthcare costs?

Without price control, it won't.

[Hallelujah]

Without price control, it won't.

Control what prices? Doctor's salaries? Hospital expenses? And do we need universal healthcare to control prices?

[RobinFinderson]

Control what prices? Doctor's salaries? Hospital expenses? And do we need universal healthcare to control prices?

Yes.

[Indy Coug]

Without price control, it won't.

Are you advocating tort reform then?

[Hallelujah]

Yes.

Do you fix the physician shortage by controlling physician wages? Do you fix 3-4% profit margins for hospitals by reducing their income? Do you encourage new drug research by mandating pricing to drug companies?

Living in California, I would have thought you were more keenly aware of the disastrous results of government mandate.

1) Hospital ER's forced to treat everyone. Result: ER's being closed.
2) Nurse to patient ratios (other legislation). Result: fines to hospitals and increased costs. Over 50+ hospitals closed in last few years.

How have 1 and 2 benefitted the citizens of California. So the few have hurt the majority. And you want similar crap shoved down everyone's throats? I guess misery loves company.

[RobinFinderson]

Are you advocating tort reform then?

I like to be consistent on this point. Yes to tort reform under Universal Health Care. No to tort reform under the private system.

I'm consistent. You either have the wild west of health care, where doctors can lose their shirts, but stand to make a lot of money because of 'free market' forces, or you have a government operated system, where it is in our collective best interests to control costs, because ultimately we are paying for the care through tax dollars.

What advocates of tort reform are asking for is for the government to interfere in the free market only in ways the maximize their bottom line. That isn't the free market at all. You go one way or the other, and be consistent.

[RobinFinderson]

Do you fix the physician shortage by controlling physician wages? Do you fix 3-4% profit margins for hospitals by reducing their income? Do you encourage new drug research by mandating pricing to drug companies?

Living in California, I would have thought you were more keenly aware of the disastrous results of government mandate.

1) Hospital ER's forced to treat everyone. Result: ER's being closed.
2) Nurse to patient ratios (other legislation). Result: fines to hospitals and increased costs. Over 50+ hospitals closed in last few years.

How have 1 and 2 benefitted the citizens of California. So the few have hurt the majority. And you want similar crap shoved down everyone's throats? I guess misery loves company.

How about eliminating doctor shortages by allowing nurses to perform more simple procedures and by preventing the AMA from capping medical school enrollment? Some free market. You have a bunch of doctors with a very strong lobby who prevent nurses from doing simple procedures without some doctor getting a cut of the action, and they limit the number of people who can enter the profession, creating artificial shortages that maximize their earning potential. Sheesh, as a free-marketeer I would think this stuff would drive you nuts.

[dabrockster]

I like to be consistent on this point. Yes to tort reform under Universal Health Care. No to tort reform under the private system.

I'm consistent. You either have the wild west of health care, where doctors can lose their shirts, but stand to make a lot of money because of 'free market' forces, or you have a government operated system, where it is in our collective best interests to control costs, because ultimately we are paying for the care through tax dollars.

What advocates of tort reform are asking for is for the government to interfere in the free market only in ways the maximize their bottom line. That isn't the free market at all. You go one way or the other, and be consistent.

Isn't the reason Tort Reform is even needed, is due to Government regulation/intervention etc??

[RobinFinderson]

Isn't the reason Tort Reform is even needed, is due to Government regulation/intervention etc??

Doctors getting sued is the result of private parties that have disputes about the quality of service rendered by professionals. The government provides these parties an orderly venue in which to resolve their dispute. Tort reform is an attempt by one party to seek favored status in these disputes. Tort reform in government interference in a private dispute that comes out of a free market exchange of goods and services.

[Hallelujah]

How about eliminating doctor shortages by allowing nurses to perform more simple procedures and by preventing the AMA from capping medical school enrollment? Some free market. You have a bunch of doctors with a very strong lobby who prevent nurses from doing simple procedures without some doctor getting a cut of the action, and they limit the number of people who can enter the profession, creating artificial shortages that maximize their earning potential. Sheesh, as a free-marketeer I would think this stuff would drive you nuts.

what simple procedures? and there are nurse practioners and pa's to do much of it. you want a 2 year trained RN to diagnose your illnesses?

with respect to medical school enrollment, they are capped based on funding in most cases, not some artificial cap. i believe the UofU indicated that it costs them $80,000 per year to educate med students. tuition is $20K.

[wuapinmon]

Ex-ute. I resolved in August to not respond to any of your posts for a month, so I'm coming back at you with fresh eyes. Your comments in this thread appear to take a hostile tone, even the title suggests there's an exasperated feeling of incredulousness on your part. Am I wrong? I can't measure your tone, and maybe I've had you wrong all this time.

[dabrockster]

Doctors getting sued is the result of private parties that have disputes about the quality of service rendered by professionals. The government provides these parties an orderly venue in which to resolve their dispute. Tort reform is an attempt by one party to seek favored status in these disputes. Tort reform in government interference in a private dispute that comes out of a free market exchange of goods and services.

So the Government did in fact make it possible to sue Doctors and caused a domino effect that has now caused a CYA type of service..

Instead of getting the proper care most Doctors take all the stupid steps needed to ensure they will not be sued... And has also effected the cost as well..

[Indy Coug]

Guess which proposition will result in lower insurance premiums

Case1: 99.9% chance of $0, 0.1% chance of $10,000,000

Case2: 99% chance of $0, 1% chance of 1,000,000

[Hallelujah]

Ex-ute. I resolved in August to not respond to any of your posts for a month, so I'm coming back at you with fresh eyes. Your comments in this thread appear to take a hostile tone, even the title suggests there's an exasperated feeling of incredulousness on your part. Am I wrong? I can't measure your tone, and maybe I've had you wrong all this time.

This was hostile? how will universal healthcare for everyone reduce healthcare costs? It's estimated it will cost $1 Trillion over 10 years but will be paid for by cost savings. How?

If you buy that notion of cost savings, tell me how we will get those cost savings to offset the $Trillion. Obama's upcoming speech prompted the question.

and exute folklore continues.