On abortion

[Northwestcoug]

What are the abortion laws like in other (non-China) countries?

Whatever they are in the rest of the developed world, they aren’t nearly as bad as some states that have already passed trigger laws going into effect. And not as bad as a bunch of others that will pass bad legislation in the face of constant pressure from the pro life contingent.

[Pelado]

What are the abortion laws like in other (non-China) countries?

[Northwestcoug]

Muh states’ rights!

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[Non Sequitur]

Are you speaking nationally or about Utah? Nationally, no doubt. I think Louisiana has most of what you say right now. I'm not sure about Utah though.

Both. A majority of the new laws popping up are aimed at going after abortion providers. The next phase will be to start going after individuals, which is truly frightening. It will open a whole can of worms of how far we go in allowing the government to monitor a woman's pregnancy. If medical abortion drugs are illegal in Utah, but a woman takes one anyway and induces a miscarriage and sees a doctor, what power are we willing to give the state to determine whether the miscarriage was medically induced?

[USUC]

They will eventually go after Plan B. There are lawmakers who are of the opinion that life begins at fertilization, however ridiculous that is. The immediate fight will be go after people wanting to cross state lines to get an abortion or people trying to purchase medical abortion drugs. So much of this is political theater. Just as prohibition did not change Americans appetite for alcohol, this will not change Americans views on abortion. All that will be accomplished is that abortions will now be more expensive and more dangerous.

Are you speaking nationally or about Utah? Nationally, no doubt. I think Louisiana has most of what you say right now. I'm not sure about Utah though.

[falafel]

I am guessing they will put an abortion clinic between the 24x7 booze store and marijuana dispensary just across the border in Wendover... Not much will change. You knock up your girlfriend one weekend. You take her to Wendover another weekend for an abortion, gambling, hard booze, and some mary jane.

And a quick divorce, if that is necessary.

[Non Sequitur]

Moving away from the decision SCOTUS itself, what does the political fight look like now? I think this will be the classic dog that caught the car scenario for pro lifers. It's going to be nearly impossible to enforce what they want.

For Utah in particular, how does this shake out? Is Plan B access in danger now? Will they attempt to prosecute residents who go to other states for abortions? I kind of think Cox will prevent a Texas or Louisiana sitation hsppening here, but who knows now.

They will eventually go after Plan B. There are lawmakers who are of the opinion that life begins at fertilization, however ridiculous that is. The immediate fight will be go after people wanting to cross state lines to get an abortion or people trying to purchase medical abortion drugs. So much of this is political theater. Just as prohibition did not change Americans appetite for alcohol, this will not change Americans views on abortion. All that will be accomplished is that abortions will now be more expensive and more dangerous.

[fusnik]

https://mobile.twitter.com/petermaer...C9zZH-5eAqAAAA

There’s gonna to be hundreds of these circumstances over the next 3-4 months you’d think.

Im assuming criminalization of abortion is next for a bunch of states.

[Uncle Ted]

Moving away from the decision SCOTUS itself, what does the political fight look like now? I think this will be the classic dog that caught the car scenario for pro lifers. It's going to be nearly impossible to enforce what they want.

For Utah in particular, how does this shake out? Is Plan B access in danger now? Will they attempt to prosecute residents who go to other states for abortions? I kind of think Cox will prevent a Texas or Louisiana sitation hsppening here, but who knows now.

I am guessing they will put an abortion clinic between the 24x7 booze store and marijuana dispensary just across the border in Wendover... Not much will change. You knock up your girlfriend one weekend. You take her to Wendover another weekend for an abortion, gambling, hard booze, and some mary jane.

[USUC]

Moving away from the decision SCOTUS itself, what does the political fight look like now? I think this will be the classic dog that caught the car scenario for pro lifers. It's going to be nearly impossible to enforce what they want.

For Utah in particular, how does this shake out? Is Plan B access in danger now? Will they attempt to prosecute residents who go to other states for abortions? I kind of think Cox will prevent a Texas or Louisiana sitation hsppening here, but who knows now.

[Northwestcoug]

This isn't in response to any post in particular. But here's some good information from the CDC. The latest date I could find is 2019:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/...1.htm#T14_down

A couple of pertinent statistics:

For those states that report on abortions, in 2019, 92% of all abortions occurred in the first trimester. Almost half of these happened at 6 weeks or less, which indicates that a significant proportion of all abortion are chemically induced. 1% occurred at 21 weeks or greater (the data doesn't give any more detail about fetal age after 21 weeks).

About 60% of abortions in 2019 occurred in women who had 1 or more previous live births.

The total number of abortions, abortion rate (per 1000 women of child-bearing age), and ratio (per 1000 live births) has been gradually decreasing since 2010. They are 625K, 11.4%, and 195 in 2019.

At least according to the CDC, the current abortion rate is a lot lower than some other published statistics I've seen online. According to the link, about 19% of abortions in the US were not reported to the CDC in 2019 (this includes California). However, at least in 2017 when another large survey that included California was done, the abortion rate was estimated at 13.5. This seems like the more commonly reported rate of 20+ I've seen online to be based on bad data. For comparison, 13.5 would put the US a little lower than the world average.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This week's Ezra Klein podcast is a deep dive into the ethical foundations of the ab0rtion debate. Balanced and very well done. Check it out.

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I have evolving thoughts on abortion. However, I am repulsed by arguments like the following:

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Abortion is increasingly seen an essential element of living the good life. The vast majority of abortions are for convenience and this person seems to see zero guilt or shame in this line of thinking. She couches it in almost virtuous terms. A jesuit priest I admire replied with a (now deleted) tweet saying:

The road to self-actualization is paved with millions of tiny human corpses.

We are at a turning point in American history where the birthrate is now below the replacement rate and dropping more rapidly than ever. I have seen people on twitter use the term "natalist" as a pejorative mocking people who advocate parenthood. I can't help but believe Roe v. Wade played a role in building this culture.

[Pelado]

I have a problem with the characterization of an aborted fetus being called a baby. A fetus is not a baby. My mother had two miscarriages. Names weren't assigned. Death certificates weren't signed. No funerals were held. There were no additions to the family tree. I've never mourned the loss of my two dead siblings. That's because, though sad and unfortunate, the product of those miscarriages were not babies, just as the product of abortions are not babies.

My eldest sister had difficulty conceiving. With the aid of a fertility center, she got pregnant...with triplets. They named each of their offspring and, after her miscarriage, had some type of memorial service for them as well.

She and her husband have since adopted twice. Their eldest is now on a mission in South Africa.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I have a problem with the characterization of an aborted fetus being called a baby. A fetus is not a baby. My mother had two miscarriages. Names weren't assigned. Death certificates weren't signed. No funerals were held. There were no additions to the family tree. I've never mourned the loss of my two dead siblings. That's because, though sad and unfortunate, the product of those miscarriages were not babies, just as the product of abortions are not babies.

Yeesh. That’s a terrible way to make your point.

[Bo Diddley]

I have a problem with the characterization of an aborted fetus being called a baby. A fetus is not a baby. My mother had two miscarriages. Names weren't assigned. Death certificates weren't signed. No funerals were held. There were no additions to the family tree. I've never mourned the loss of my two dead siblings. That's because, though sad and unfortunate, the product of those miscarriages were not babies, just as the product of abortions are not babies.

How many weeks? Where do you draw the line? Bo Jr was seven weeks premature. Certainly before that, right? I've known people who were born weeks earlier than that as well.

And you're going to have strong disagreement from people like my sister who had a miscarriage of a boy. Her mourning was very real.