On abortion

[Northwestcoug]

What a ridiculous oversimplification.

Nothing in that quote suggests having term limits or mandatory retirement age for SCOTUS is any final solution. But that whole saga highlighted the grotesque nature of Ginsburg’s death watch in trying to time legal challenges, on both sides.

[Jeff Lebowski]

“Whatever you think about how abortion rights should be resolved,” said David A. Strauss, a University of Chicago law professor, “to resolve it this way, with a deathbed watch on one old person, seems crazy.”

What a ridiculous oversimplification.

[Northwestcoug]

NYT article with all the Gor(such) details on how Roe v Wade was overturned. Here's a nice little detail on a singular issue in the US:

The timing of [Ginsburg's] death highlighted a singular feature of the federal judicial system: The United States is the world’s only major constitutional democracy without term limits or a mandatory retirement age for its highest judges. The lifetime tenure granted to Supreme Court justices means that laws affecting hundreds of millions of people can hang on the happenstance of a single elderly citizen’s decline.

The arrival of a new justice can help refresh the law. But tying a dramatic legal shift to the death of one particular justice can also erode trust in the court.

“Whatever you think about how abortion rights should be resolved,” said David A. Strauss, a University of Chicago law professor, “to resolve it this way, with a deathbed watch on one old person, seems crazy.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/u...-abortion.html

[Jeff Lebowski]

There is absolutely no equivalency between the state GOP bodies trying to outlaw all abortion and late term abortion proponents. Trying to legislate all abortion away is nowhere near equivalent to keeping the extremely rare instance of late term abortion at the discretion of the mother and medical professionals.

I am very pessimistic that the US will settle into a European-like abortion stance. It would take a national will that simply isn’t there. And if a national law passes, what’s the over/under on how many conservative states would just ignore it, like the Idaho GOP statement says? 10?

Ignoring it would not fly in court. Let's not get too carried away by dumb ideas in party platforms.

[Northwestcoug]

I think the consequences of this is both sides of this debate in America realizing that this all leads to European type laws. The extreme pro-life side is already dealing with the realities of rape and health issues that just can't be easily waived away. And the "shout your abortion" folks will soon realize how appalling they are and that late term abortions are morally reprehensible. This country will settle where Europe has decades ago with bans after around 15 weeks.

There is absolutely no equivalency between the state GOP bodies trying to outlaw all abortion and late term abortion proponents. Trying to legislate all abortion away is nowhere near equivalent to keeping the extremely rare instance of late term abortion at the discretion of the mother and medical professionals.

I am very pessimistic that the US will settle into a European-like abortion stance. It would take a national will that simply isn’t there. And if a national law passes, what’s the over/under on how many conservative states would just ignore it, like the Idaho GOP statement says? 10?

[USUC]

I think the consequences of this is both sides of this debate in America realizing that this all leads to European type laws. The extreme pro-life side is already dealing with the realities of rape and health issues that just can't be easily waived away. And the "shout your abortion" folks will soon realize how appalling they are and that late term abortions are morally reprehensible. This country will settle where Europe has decades ago with bans after around 15 weeks.

[Eddie]

Honestly - it's the craziness of some of these states outlawing abortion in any and all instances that makes me think the Dems swallowing their pride and attempt to pass a national law allowing for abortion in the case of rape, incest, and health of the mother being at risk. I know it isn't everything they want - but I think those limits would have a chance to pass and are a decent compromise that most people agree with.

[Moliere]

Idaho GOP seems nice:



https://idahocapitalsun.com/2022/07/...form-language/

Texas is going down the same path with the lawsuit filed last week. It’s alarming and isn’t going to end well.

[Northwestcoug]

Idaho GOP seems nice:

By a nearly four-to-one margin, Idaho Republicans at the state party’s convention in Twin Falls rejected an amendment to the party platform on Saturday that would have provided an exception for a mother who has an abortion to safe her life.

https://idahocapitalsun.com/2022/07/...form-language/

[Uncle Ted]

Let see... Amazon could pull out of a lot of states or fire some employees on a list:

Embedded Tweet

They should pull out of all these states and let the competition move in. That won't hurt their business much. I bet all the people in these states shop at Walmart anyway.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I am more stridently pro-choice than most Americans (I think?), but I think Nichols strikes a tone that a solid majority can agree with:


https://www.theatlantic.com/newslett...tm_source=feed

You can call it a lot of things, but "judicial activism"? Come on.

[Moliere]

I am more stridently pro-choice than most Americans (I think?), but I think Nichols strikes a tone that a solid majority can agree with:




https://www.theatlantic.com/newslett...tm_source=feed

I don’t necessarily disagree with Nichols (not that my opinion matters) and agree abortion should be legal but with restrictions after 15 weeks. It’s not just a moral issue but there are societal reasons to have safe abortions available, such as the fact that it reduces crime (see the freakonomics podcast in this).

If I’ve learned one thing during this debate and all I’ve read, I think I’ve better understood the liberal philosophy to the Supreme Court and the progressive view in how they view rights. I’m more sympathetic to it but mostly because our legislature is impotent. That pushes legislative issues to the president (executive orders) and SCOTUS (activist judges creating law through rulings). If we had an effective legislature then we’d be in a different scenario.

But liberals love activist judges when they do what they want and hate them when they overturn that same stuff.

In not being facetious here but I really think we are going to see some weird travel stuff start to pop up in the red states. I can see “abortion buses” being filled up and heading for blue states for their week “sojourn” all paid for by donations from liberal billionaires. Which is partly why I think while the decision is the correct one legally, it’s just dumb in the real world. The GOP won’t get a total abortion ban at the federal level so we’ll be trapped in this limbo where abortions are just inconvenient. Maybe a few more babies will be born that would’ve been aborted but the impact won’t be as big as either side thinks.

[Northwestcoug]

I am more stridently pro-choice than most Americans (I think?), but I think Nichols strikes a tone that a solid majority can agree with:

Like most Americans, I think abortion must remain legal—but with restrictions. I am conflicted about abortion because of things that happened in my own family, but when it comes to the law, let’s stipulate that over the half century that Roe kept abortion legal, even some of its defenders thought it might be a shaky decision—the product of judicial activism. They were right: Roe was the product of an activist Court. But then, so was Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization.

How, conservatives fume, can anyone argue that dumping Roe and “throwing it back to the states” is “activism”?

Here’s the answer: Years of political change matter. Decades ago, abortion became accepted as a right by a broad majority of the country. Justice Samuel Alito and the other five conservatives on the Supreme Court were not handing back abortion to the states as if it were some open question for a debate; they knew exactly what was going to happen in states with “trigger” laws the minute they ruled. Despite their legal rationale, these justices were taking sides in a culture war on behalf of a minority of Americans with whom at least some of them happen to agree.

Alito, in particular, had been strategizing for years about this single issue: As The New York Times reported, in 1985, before he was on the Court, Alito took “umbrage” at a judge’s comments that “forcing women to listen to details about fetal development before their abortions” would cause them emotional distress. “Good, [Alito] wrote: Such results ‘are part of the responsibility of moral choice.’” (As my Atlantic colleague Adam Serwer has written, “The cruelty is the point.”)

But somehow, in 2022, we’re supposed to believe that now-Justice Alito approached Dobbs with a dispassionate constitutional eye.

https://www.theatlantic.com/newslett...tm_source=feed

[Uncle Ted]

"I won't make a baby unless I can kill it..."

She decides: Women go on nationwide SEX STRIKE in protest at SCOTUS overturning Roe v Wade as pro-choice marches continue across America and rioters in Portland go on rampage

• Pro-choice supporters are calling for a 'sex strike' in response to SCOTUS decision to overturn Roe v. Wade on Friday
• Many women who marched with thousands of protesters in New York City on Friday and Saturday held signs that read 'No sex until we have abortion rights'
• The hashtag #SexStrike began trending on Twitter following the protests
• Protests are expected to carry on through the weekend in major cities

[...]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oe-v-Wade.html

Well, that seems reasonable.

[BigFatMeanie]

I agree it’s dumb. I don’t point it out as I think it’s a viable scenario. I bring it up because it’s great evidence to show that support isn’t there with a supermajority not is it there for a simple majority. The support isn’t there regardless of how many people say that most Americans support abortion. Sure, a major Rory of Americans support limited abortion rights, but democrats don’t want to pass limited abortion rights.

Dude, what about all the Americans that aren't named Rory? What about them?