Ukraine - somebody explain to me

[hostile]

http://www.presstelegram.com/general...n-nazi-germany

I wonder if she will then compare Obama to Neville Chamberlain?

[SCcoug]

http://www.presstelegram.com/general...n-nazi-germany

She needs to send Kerry a bigger reset button.

[USUC]

I'm curious to if Putin is going to send troops into Eastern Ukraine. Apparently there are reports of Russian passports being distributed to Russian Speakers in the East. Propaganda is working up the Russian Speakers and they are starting clash with local police. Signitures are being collected that appeal to Russia to intervene and bring in troops. Meanwhile in Crimea, UN representative Robert Serry has been held against his will in a coffee shop by a pro-Russian mob and Ukrainian Col Gen Mikhail Koval has been kidnapped by Russian speaking people.

[Omaha 680]

If you can't see anything about Europe to emulate than you sir are the ugly American. There, I said it.

I think this is what '71 was going for:

I can't say I disagree. Although there are some things I like about Europe. I'm open-minded like that.

[Blueintheface]

I think this is what '71 was going for:

I can't say I disagree. Although there are some things I like about Europe. I'm open-minded like that.

I love that commercial and I absolutely love America.

Here's something European (Spanish anyway) we as Americans should emulate: tapas!!!!

[frank ryan]

I have some thoughts on the conflict. Ukraine is far more strategically import to Russia than the US. Putin wants a buffer country, the Crimean port is Russia's only warm water port and taking Crimea serves notice to the rest of the world that the Russians will throw down regardless of international opinion. That example will cause the 'stan countries to draw even closer to Moscow.
If Obama is guilty of appeasement, George Bush was guilty of the same. He tested NATO's stomach for reactive military action when he invaded Georgia.
Putin's primary strategy for Russian ascension isn't increased military spending or these invasions but using gas and oil to greatly influence the would-be counterbalancing nations of Europe. Gradually he was made those countries more and more reliant on Russia's natural gas. Even the US has significant ties to their oil.
The best strategy is going to be to give Poland and Estonia, and others more military aid and technology and increase NATO presence in those places also.
Eff Putin he is a better chess player than our current and former presidents and that sucks.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I have some thoughts on the conflict. Ukraine is far more strategically import to Russia than the US. Putin wants a buffer country, the Crimean port is Russia's only warm water port and taking Crimea serves notice to the rest of the world that the Russians will throw down regardless of international opinion. That example will cause the 'stan countries to draw even closer to Moscow.
If Obama is guilty of appeasement, George Bush was guilty of the same. He tested NATO's stomach for reactive military action when he invaded Georgia.
Putin's primary strategy for Russian ascension isn't increased military spending or these invasions but using gas and oil to greatly influence the would-be counterbalancing nations of Europe. Gradually he was made those countries more and more reliant on Russia's natural gas. Even the US has significant ties to their oil.
The best strategy is going to be to give Poland and Estonia, and others more military aid and technology and increase NATO presence in those places also.
Eff Putin he is a better chess player than our current and former presidents and that sucks.

That notice was served a loooooong time ago.

[frank ryan]

That notice was served a loooooong time ago.

With Georgia maybe, but had a slightly less phony pretext. Notice how both invasions have happened right around or during the Olympics?

[Jeff Lebowski]

With Georgia maybe, but had a slightly less phony pretext. Notice how both invasions have happened right around or during the Olympics?

Name for me a single significant incident where Russia/Putin seemed to bow to international pressure.

[frank ryan]

Name for me a single significant incident where Russia/Putin seemed to bow to international pressure.

none really comes to mind. i still see this as an escalation of this behavior

[CardiacCoug]

I'm curious to if Putin is going to send troops into Eastern Ukraine. Apparently there are reports of Russian passports being distributed to Russian Speakers in the East. Propaganda is working up the Russian Speakers and they are starting clash with local police. Signitures are being collected that appeal to Russia to intervene and bring in troops. Meanwhile in Crimea, UN representative Robert Serry has been held against his will in a coffee shop by a pro-Russian mob and Ukrainian Col Gen Mikhail Koval has been kidnapped by Russian speaking people.

Everybody in Crimea speaks Russian -- just thought I would point that out. I spent 10 months there, was in Yalta, Simferopol, Yevpatoria, Sevastopol, and never met a Crimean who didn't speak Russian as his first language.

[Topper]

Everybody in Crimea speaks Russian -- just thought I would point that out. I spent 10 months there, was in Yalta, Simferopol, Yevpatoria, Sevastopol, and never met a Crimean who didn't speak Russian as his first language.

I had an interesting discussion about the situation with a Bulgarian immigrant about the Ukraine. He stated, if he were Ukrainian, he would stay with Russia for reasons I hadn't considered.

Bulgaria joined the EU, and had to give up its own nuclear power to be governed by the EU standards. Bulgarian shops disappeared to be replaced by the international chains, owned by western Europeans. The native Bulgarians did not prosper from it but westerners did and the impossible EU regulations stifled Bulgarian development, whereas Russia will not stamp out Ukrainian industry by imposing standards. All of production is in the Russian east. He believes the Ukraine could be more prosperous under Russian system than under the EU. I am not sure I am convinced but it was an interesting perspective.

[USUC]

Obama Putin.jpg

[USUC]

I had an interesting discussion about the situation with a Bulgarian immigrant about the Ukraine. He stated, if he were Ukrainian, he would stay with Russia for reasons I hadn't considered.

Bulgaria joined the EU, and had to give up its own nuclear power to be governed by the EU standards. Bulgarian shops disappeared to be replaced by the international chains, owned by western Europeans. The native Bulgarians did not prosper from it but westerners did and the impossible EU regulations stifled Bulgarian development, whereas Russia will not stamp out Ukrainian industry by imposing standards. All of production is in the Russian east. He believes the Ukraine could be more prosperous under Russian system than under the EU. I am not sure I am convinced but it was an interesting perspective.

The Ukraine is probably in a no win situation with this. I'm not as optimistic as your Bulgarian friend of Russia providing the best relationship with Ukraine. But I can't imagine Russia ever willingly letting Ukraine go to the West. The Moscow correspondent for the Wall Street Journal did a Q&A with readers today and said this:

t's critical to understand that Ukraine is and probably always will be more "important" to Russia than it is to either the EU or the US.

Why is that?

Russia traces many of its most important cultural roots to Kiev. The eastern half of Ukraine is Russian speaking. Millions of people in Russia have relatives, business ties and genealogical roots in what is now Ukraine. They share a border and long were the same country (empire, if you will). Many share the same (orthodox) religion.

Meanwhile, a large portion of the US and Europe probably couldn't point to Ukraine on a map. It's a far off place.

What the intervention in Crimea shows is that Russia is willing to go to the wall to protect this historical relationship in Ukraine. The idea of a government loyal to the EU/US, actively rebuking Russia and rising to power out of a street protest movement is something Moscow sees as an incredible threat. Remember - Russia also has its Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol, so that makes this even more important, because there are military interests in addition to cultural/political ones.

In short, yes, Ukraine and Crimea are that valuable to Russia. They consider this their backyard (to the chagrin of many Ukrainians, particularly in the West).

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...wall/?sort=top

[byu71]

He believes the Ukraine could be more prosperous under Russian system than under the EU. I am not sure I am convinced but it was an interesting perspective.

I also believe the US could be more prosperous under the US model than the EU model Obama/Reid and Pelosi would like to take us too.

Plus if you have any need for protection, who do you think would better stand up for you Putin or the Europeans?

It is a really tough situation and If I put aside I think Putin is a tyrant, I can understand those who would rather hang out with the Russians than the EU.