The Fiscal Cliff

[VirginiaCougar]

A lot of money is spent on benefits for a relatively small percentage of Americans. Take for instance the national parks. If you divide total American time available, how much of the time is spent in the national parks? Also, shouldn't the parks be making money? We should charge enough to enter the parks to pay for the cost of running them.

I would rather go golfing than to a national park. If visitors to the national parks are being subsidized by the government, why shouldn't I be subsidized for my choices?

Maybe because Teddy was right and there is some value in preserving our national treasures like Yellowstone or Yosemite. That not everything should be marketized.

[Moliere]

Why wouldn't the parks close? The shutdown removes (with just a few specific exceptions) the governments ability to pay any of its bills, regardless of whether the agency is financially self-sufficent or not. Another example, this weekend's Air Force vs. Navy Football game is cancelled because the travel and stadium costs can't be incurred, even if the football program were to generate sufficient revenue.

It is why a government shutdown is such a bad way to push a policy disagreement. You put at risk the full faith and credit of the US all for a narrow political disagreement.

I think you are being a little too dramatic. First off, the football games have not been cancelled...yet. Also, the full faith and credit of the US is hardly on the line. We've had over a dozen gov't shutdowns over the past 40 years or so and we are still moving right along. This is a bump in the road, and one that you are correct that it will hurt the GOP much more than the Dems...and I think rightfully so.

[Pelado]

That is funny. It isn't big bad CNN out to get the GOP because of its deeply embedded bias. I am surprised at low indoctrinated that argument is within the far right. Anything away from the narrative and you get that. Look, even the primary GOP pollsters are saying the same thing. Go back and look at Rove and a number of others said - this was a DUMB idea to begin with and remains one. It will harm the GOP just like it did in 1996, where it can be argued that it impacted GOP Congressional elections for 2-3 cycles. It didn't have to happen.

Beyond the poll numbers, it is bad and harmful to Constitutional governance. There is a place to debate, approve, change, and remove legislation. It isn't at the end by holding the entire US government hostage to avoid the appropriate legislative process. You don't get to say, "we didn't get our way so nobody gets funding previously approved by the appropriate legislative process until ..."

If I ever hear Lee or Cruz talk about Constitutional governance again, after this little fiasco, they should have their mouths washed out with soap and be forced to write a la Bart Simpson "I don't understand Constitutional Governance" 5000 times on a blackboard.

On the first bolded part, Sean Trende disagrees (linked by CMBF above):

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...wn_120169.html

On the second bolded part, my understanding of the appropriate government process for funding may differ from yours, but isn't there supposed to be an annual budget approved by both chambers and then signed by the President instead of a series of continuing resolutions?

[Moliere]

Are they locking the gates? I love the idea of going up into Yosemite without pesky backcountry rangers. No permits!!

I read an article on CNN that said the park rangers that were on staff had closed the gates but were just watching as people went through/around. Imagine enjoying the beauty of America without paying a fee and having to only clean up after yourself. Maybe we don't need park ranger staff after all.

[ERCougar]

Are they locking the gates? I love the idea of going up into Yosemite without pesky backcountry rangers. No permits!!

That was my first thought.
We have campsite reservations at the Grand Canyon in two weeks. I'm thinking people will cancel their plans. And I don't know about the set up, but there are plenty of national parks manned just by a ranger station--no gates (Zion, for example). So I get the Grand Canyon to myself?

[imanihonjin]

That is funny. It isn't big bad CNN out to get the GOP because of its deeply embedded bias. I am surprised at low indoctrinated that argument is within the far right. Anything away from the narrative and you get that. Look, even the primary GOP pollsters are saying the same thing. Go back and look at Rove and a number of others said - this was a DUMB idea to begin with and remains one. It will harm the GOP just like it did in 1996, where it can be argued that it impacted GOP Congressional elections for 2-3 cycles. It didn't have to happen.

Beyond the poll numbers, it is bad and harmful to Constitutional governance. There is a place to debate, approve, change, and remove legislation. It isn't at the end by holding the entire US government hostage to avoid the appropriate legislative process. You don't get to say, "we didn't get our way so nobody gets funding previously approved by the appropriate legislative process until ..."

If I ever hear Lee or Cruz talk about Constitutional governance again, after this little fiasco, they should have their mouths washed out with soap and be forced to write a la Bart Simpson "I don't understand Constitutional Governance" 5000 times on a blackboard.

What is unconstitutional about what they are doing. Nobody is suggesting it is unconstitutional except you.

[Uncle Ted]

There is no way that National Parks are financially self-sufficient. No way.

Your deputy director and chief economist of management and budget office says that Utah will take a billion hit in the economy if the parks are closed for the month....

While there's no estimate yet of the shutdown's financial drain on the state's economy, the costs will climb quickly if funding for federal government operations is not restored soon.


Just keeping the national parks closed through October could mean a $1 billion hit to the state's economy, said Juliette Tennent, deputy director and chief economist of the management and budget office.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...-shutdown.html

If Utah is making so much money on the national parks maybe the federal government should tax y'all a bit more. You can thank Uncle Mike.

[VirginiaCougar]

On the first bolded part, Sean Trende disagrees (linked by CMBF above):

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...wn_120169.html

On the second bolded part, my understanding of the appropriate government process for funding may differ from yours, but isn't there supposed to be an annual budget approved by both chambers and then signed by the President instead of a series of continuing resolutions?

On the first point, having looked at the data - I would disagree.

On your second point - I agree. It is absolutely absurd that government has been functioning on CRs for as long as they have. That body (Congress) has some serious problems and both parties are responsible for it. It is well beyond time to return to a real budgetary process.

But that doesn't change what the shutdown is and how it is going back on America's agreed upon obligations through the legislative process. it still remains a horrific idea to shutdown government for these political/partisan reasons in some perverse version of Russian roulette. (Do what I want or I will pull the trigger on all of us....)

[imanihonjin]

Why wouldn't the parks close? The shutdown removes (with just a few specific exceptions) the governments ability to pay any of its bills, regardless of whether the agency is financially self-sufficent or not. Another example, this weekend's Air Force vs. Navy Football game is cancelled because the travel and stadium costs can't be incurred, even if the football program were to generate sufficient revenue.

It is why a government shutdown is such a bad way to push a policy disagreement. You put at risk the full faith and credit of the US all for a narrow political disagreement.

Obama, Pelosi, and Reid could have raised the debt ceiling to $100 Trillion dollars if they had wanted prior to the '10 elections. Why didn't they plan better to make sure that they had acted appropriately and make sure the full faith and credit of the US was protected in connection with all of the wild spending they were doing? Why did they leave it to other Congress' to raise the debt ceiling, for debt that was incurred under their leadership?

Due to their actions they left it to a later Congress, which is acting in accordance with their Constitutional powers.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I was talking about the actual direct budget for the park itself, not the overall impact of the economy. Yes, I am sure that the state of Utah will take a huge hit the national parks close.

[Pelado]

On the first point, having looked at the data - I would disagree.

On your second point - I agree. It is absolutely absurd that government has been functioning on CRs for as long as they have. That body (Congress) has some serious problems and both parties are responsible for it. It is well beyond time to return to a real budgetary process.

But that doesn't change what the shutdown is and how it is going back on America's agreed upon obligations through the legislative process. it still remains a horrific idea to shutdown government for these political/partisan reasons in some perverse version of Russian roulette. (Do what I want or I will pull the trigger on all of us....)

Just to clarify, you'd disagree with Trende, or with your earlier assertion?

[ERCougar]

If Utah is making so much money on the national parks maybe the federal government should tax y'all a bit more. You can thank Uncle Mike.

Lol.
Our economy would make a lot more from letting us plant a Hilton at the base of Delicate Arch.
Locals never support federal parks/monuments, do they? Remember Grand Staircase?

[Katy Lied]

On your second point - I agree. It is absolutely absurd that government has been functioning on CRs for as long as they have. That body (Congress) has some serious problems and both parties are responsible for it. It is well beyond time to return to a real budgetary process.

I agree. And the Democrats held Congress, the Senate and the White house for how many months without any substantive movement on this? Then when the GOP arrived, they made the situation even worse. So both parties ARE responsible. But why didn't the Dems get the job done while they had the power?

[VirginiaCougar]

I think you are being a little too dramatic. First off, the football games have not been cancelled...yet. Also, the full faith and credit of the US is hardly on the line. We've had over a dozen gov't shutdowns over the past 40 years or so and we are still moving right along. This is a bump in the road, and one that you are correct that it will hurt the GOP much more than the Dems...and I think rightfully so.

The final decision on the games comes Thursday, but as of now that is what they are thinking from what I have read.

I would agree that as a nation, we have done fine through all of these. (It is interesting that this tactic doesn't begin until the late 70s - that is an interesting transition in our politics). But anyone of these could be that harmful, we really are playing with serious consequences with each of these. Just because the chamber has been empty each previous time we have played Russian Roulette doesn't mean that there won't be a bullet in the chamber next time. It is a dangerous game.

I will be very happy if nothing serious happens this time as well. I wish they understood what they were playing with when they do these sorts of things and that both sides in Congress would stop acting like 7 year olds pitching the mother of all fits.

[VirginiaCougar]

I agree. And the Democrats held Congress, the Senate and the White house for how many months without any substantive movement on this? Then when the GOP arrived, they made the situation even worse. So both parties ARE responsible. But why didn't the Dems get the job done while they had the power?

Yes! Both Parties. I think the Democratic Senate carries huge responsibility on this point. Republicans also have their part in it. It is both. I disagree with Reid's reasoning on why he hasn't presented a budget. He has argued that they don't offer a budget because the Far Right has promised to filibuster it. Regardless of what is in it. He is right, they have promised to do so, but he should still present the budget. Have it go through the process and then he could claim the GOP carries full responsibility. He and the Dems didn't do that. They are a big part of the problem. If they had offered and pushed a specific budget, they could claim as they rightly can now on the shutdown that it is the GOP. From what I understand it is true that certain Tea Party Senators had promised to filibuster any budget deal, but you have got to force them to do it. You carry the responsibility to present a budget, regardless of what happens to it. That is the Constitutional process.

That is also why the shutdown was such a stupid move for the GOP - they do really own this shutdown. History will not treat Cruz's "little" speech very kindly. As far as the whole budgetary mess - they all own it.