I'm not sure if Walmart simply misjudged what people want this year...

[frank ryan]

as much as it is the right of unions to organize and bargain collectively (but, only as much as the first amendment allows; unions shouldn't get special statutory treatment), it's the prerogative of businesses to compensate employees however they feel within the confines of employment law. wal-mart employees are generally compensated commensurate with their skill level. it sucks for them, but low-skill labor just does not justify pension costs or most other benefits. if employees don't like it, they're free to end the at-will relationship whenever they please.

The right to form unions was codified by the National Labor Relations Act.

[frank ryan]

the walmart employees i talked to were making holiday pay (1.5 time) on top of any overtime (again, 1.5 time). i realize that they are generally poor employers, but when a generally unskilled individual can make 225% of their hourly wage i have a hard time comparing walmart to employers in the labor struggles that defined unions.

The service sector is the new battleground for labor.

[RC Vikings]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/black-friday-sales-slip-shoppers-opt-thursday-doorbusters-165525323--finance.html

It looks like Thanksgiving shopping took some of the thunder from black Friday.

[Moliere]

The service sector is the new battleground for labor.

That will likely be a tough market for big labor. Unions have done a great job in protecting workers in dangerous professions (manufacturing, mining, linemen, etc.) and when they don't get too much power they actually are a net benefit to the workers and the company. However, there is little to offer employees in the service sector as far as working conditions. Sure Walmart and others tend to bend the rules on taking a break every 4 hours (or whatever the rule is) but those conditions are a far cry from when 1 out of every 2 linemen were being killed on the job.

[frank ryan]

That will likely be a tough market for big labor. Unions have done a great job in protecting workers in dangerous professions (manufacturing, mining, linemen, etc.) and when they don't get too much power they actually are a net benefit to the workers and the company. However, there is little to offer employees in the service sector as far as working conditions. Sure Walmart and others tend to bend the rules on taking a break every 4 hours (or whatever the rule is) but those conditions are a far cry from when 1 out of every 2 linemen were being killed on the job.

Of course this isn't the wild west where miners die all the time unless you work for Bob Murray. But I could go through a litany of horrid working conditions in the service sector. And I love you man but you are being generous. Wal-Mart didn't bend the rules, they broke the fuck out of them. The lost some class actions and decided to settle others because the evidence was so damning. The biggest thing I'd like to see Wal-Matians get is a small bump in pay and access after a year to due process when it comes to being fired. They have something similarish in place but it needs to be stronger. For Wal-Mart the struggle isn't over financial considerations as much as control.

[frank ryan]

I'd add one of the things Wal-Mart did was alter the time punches of employees so as not to pay them overtime.

[frank ryan]

What unions do is quite simple. They negotiate higher wages for the employed, which results in lower overall employment. So if you want your state's unemployment rate to go up, support your local unions.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2000...ill-employment

blitz, thanks for not adding anything to this thread. just when i was starting to like you

[frank ryan]

blitz, I'm sorry that was rude and out of line. We don't agree but I don't need to be a jackass.

[Moliere]

Of course this isn't the wild west where miners die all the time unless you work for Bob Murray. But I could go through a litany of horrid working conditions in the service sector. And I love you man but you are being generous. Wal-Mart didn't bend the rules, they broke the fuck out of them. The lost some class actions and decided to settle others because the evidence was so damning. The biggest thing I'd like to see Wal-Matians get is a small bump in pay and access after a year to due process when it comes to being fired. They have something similarish in place but it needs to be stronger. For Wal-Mart the struggle isn't over financial considerations as much as control.

I know very little about Walmart working conditions so I defer to you there. I only know a handful of people that have worked there and they enjoyed it. My knowledge is anecdotal.

I think I was just saying that there is more of an uphill battle for big labor to get more into the service sector. There's less public sympathy over working conditions in a Walmart as opposed to conditions in a mine. It's my opinion but I think the horrid conditions are not rampant and thus the public perception is more of an "eye roll" when unions start pushing for entrance into places like Walmart.

[Moliere]

No worries frank. I agree that unions once served an important purpose when worker safety and basic treatment was extremely poor. Today, unions seem to be more of an obstruction to growth that almost anything else in our economy (other than the government itself).

If unions were dissolved I imagine working conditions would get worse and more dangerous. I think they still were a purpose, a good purpose, but when they get big enough to control an entire company or sector then they turn into a corporate monopoly. I work for companies that have unions and for the most part they are decent groups. Difficult to work with at times, but they are typically very reasonable.

[All-American]

If unions were dissolved I imagine working conditions would get worse and more dangerous. I think they still were a purpose, a good purpose, but when they get big enough to control an entire company or sector then they turn into a corporate monopoly. I work for companies that have unions and for the most part they are decent groups. Difficult to work with at times, but they are typically very reasonable.

What you are saying would taste a lot better if I had a twinkie to go with it.

[Moliere]

What you are saying would taste a lot better if I had a twinkie to go with it.

If the free market works (and there really is demand for twinkies), someone will be producing twinkies in a fortnight...and they'll be cheaper.

[frank ryan]

...and likely produced in a country or state that has right-to-work laws.

What countries have right to work laws? I'm not entirely against right to work laws in states provided the NLRA was reformed and given teeth so truly fair elections could happen. If a union has high density in a workplace in a right-to-work state that is both an indictment of management and evidence the union provides good service.

[frank ryan]

Right to work laws are an American invention, but you can look at rates of union membership in other countries to get a sense of the countries attitudes and laws toward organized labor. Ireland and some Eastern European countries have low membership rates for example.

I'm pretty sure Ireland has higher unionization rates than the UK from what I know. Ireland's current President (not PM) is a socialist. I don't know much about Eastern Europe except that under Putin organizing is banned as a profession.

[frank ryan]

According to the RTE, which is like Ireland's BBC in 2010 union density rose. It looks quite high http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0325/tradeunions.html