The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

[Moliere]

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz will not preside or speak at the DNC.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/22/politi...ils/index.html

Come on Democrats. This isn't the year to crap the bed. If you lose this election, the Trump presidency will be as much on you as it is on the GOP.

[myboynoah]

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz will not preside or speak at the DNC.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/22/politi...ils/index.html

Come on Democrats. This isn't the year to crap the bed. If you lose this election, the Trump presidency will be as much on you as it is on the GOP.

Yeah, c'mon Dems, give America a reason to let you save it.

Or, Write in Mitt!!!

[Topper]

Did you enjoy Jorge Ramos' fluency, there?

I would prefer to listen to his Spanish to that of Kaine. His is clear, precise as far as I can tell spoken at a good rhythm.

[myboynoah]

Yeah, Kaine's accent and pronunciation sound pretty bad, but I don't know how much that plays into effectiveness and scoring. If he can speak at a 4 level, that's pretty dang good IMO.

I wonder how a gringo accent affects native Spanish speakers.

[YOhio]

Yeah, c'mon Dems, give America a reason to let you save it.

Or, Write in Mitt!!!

[frank ryan]

I know it troubles HFN when Trump is compared to fascist dictators but I think an accurate comparison among world leaders is Putin. Trump's knuckle draggers have already impacted the GOP platform. This is scary stuff.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/...really-a-thing

Additionally, I do think Putin and the FSB are helping Trump in any way they can. http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/...c-emails-trump

Only the deluded, cognitively disadvantaged or willfully ignorant would think Trump would handle US interests re.Russia than Clinton.

[wuapinmon]

You think a 4 is sufficient? Geeze.

Don't change the argument, counselor. The word sufficient has never entered into the conversation previously. The contention is Is Tim Kaine fluent? You contended that fluency = Foreign Service (S-5). By their very own definitions (as I provided with a link), fluency = S-4. Sufficient's got nothing to do with the argument. It also causes me to question, "Sufficient for what or whom?" but that's another subject.

Did you enjoy Jorge Ramos' fluency, there?

Now, you're wrong too. Native speakers can possess fluency in their own language. Most people call this fluidity, but don't get all haughty. Again, most people don't know what fluent and fluency actually mean. All shall turn and bow now toward Oxford.

fluent, adj. and n.

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Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈfluːənt/ , U.S. /ˈfluənt/
Forms: Also 15–16 fluant.
Frequency (in current use):
Etymology: < Latin fluent-em, present participle of fluĕre to flow.
A. adj. 1.

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a. That flows, flowing.

1607 E. Topsell Hist. Fovre-footed Beastes 304 Whatsoeuer [water] is moueably fluent, is lesse subiect to poyson then that which standeth still.
1684 tr. T. Bonet Guide Pract. Physician viii. 272 Ligatures..seem to..impell the fluent bloud.
1719 in T. D'Urfey Wit & Mirth III. 97 Into a fluent Stream she leapt.
1854 Jrnl. Royal Agric. Soc. 15 ii. 415 Streams which are permanent or fluent all the year.
1893 Harper's Mag. May 815/2 The metal..came fluent from the crucible.

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b. transf. and fig.; esp. of things compared to a stream or to the tide.

1642 H. More Ψυχωδια Platonica sig. I, Things that be fluent, As flitting time, by her be straight retent Unto one point.
a1657 G. Daniel Trinarchodia: Henry V ccxxviii, in Poems (1878) IV. 158 Yet Crouded Strength stifles the fluent Course Of many Glories.
1729 R. Savage Wanderer iii. 6 The sloping Sun To Ocean's Verge, his fluent Course has run.
1842 T. De Quincey Cicero in Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. July 20/1 The fluent intercourse with this island.
1854 J. S. C. Abbott Napoleon (1855) II. xxvii. 502 Masses of cavalry, in fluent and refluent surges, trampled into the bloody mire the dying and the dead.

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†c. Flowing readily as a consequence or inference. Obs.

1619 W. Sclater Expos. 1 Thess. 244 In ancient Diuinitie the inference was fluent.
1619 W. Sclater Expos. 1 Thess. 567 See if from the fact of God, mentioned by the Apostle, it runnes not as fluent.

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2.

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a. Having the property or capacity of flowing easily; ready to flow; fluid, liquid. Of a painter: Producing a fluid or liquid effect.

1611 R. Johnson tr. G. Botero Relations Famous Kingdoms World (new ed.) 5 The people of the South haue their bloud thinne and fluent.
a1626 Bacon Physiol. Remains in Baconiana (1679) 122 When it is not malleable, but yet is not fluent, but stupified.
1698 W. Harris & J. Keill tr. N. Lémery Course Chym. (ed. 3) ii. xiii. 523 This fermentation subtilizes..the viscous parts..and turns them into a thin fluentliquid.
1822 Examiner 347/2 Backhuysen is often heavy in his shadows, but admirably fluent in the representation of water and air.
1844 E. B. Browning Poems I. 101 The broad, fluent strata of pure air.
1877 H. Dixon Diana, Lady Lyle I. iii. iii. 190 A fairy pool of water lies, fluent and opalesque, under an amber slab.

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b. fig. and of non-material things: Fluid, liable to change; not stable, fixed, or rigid.

1648 W. Montagu Miscellanea Spiritualia vi. §2. 57 While the matter of worldly goods remaineth fluent and transitory.
1691 J. Ray Wisdom of God 33 Motion being a fluent thing.
1814 Wordsworth Excursion iv. 173 Did his hand bestow On fluent Operations a fixed Shape.
1851 A. Helps Compan. Solitude x. 188 The general body of opinion is very fluent.
1872 M. Collins Two Plunges for Pearl I. 196 English society is curiously fluent.

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3. transf.

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a. Of hair: Growing in abundant quantity and falling in graceful curves; flowing.

1607 E. Topsell Hist. Fovre-footed Beastes 566 Any one whose haires are too fluent and abundant.
1867 G. Meredith Vittoria I. i. 4 A fluent black moustache ran with the curve of the upper lip.
1872 Tennyson Gareth & Lynette 30 Broad brows and fair, a fluent hair and fine.

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b. Moving easily or gracefully; not stiff or rigid.

1869 R. D. Blackmore Lorna Doone I. x. 119, I never had dreamed of such delicate motion, fluent, and graceful.

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†4.

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a. Flowing freely or abundantly. Also, abounding in. Obs.

a1592 R. Greene Hist. Orlando Furioso (1594) sig. Diiiv, Those fluent springs of your lamenting teares.
1611 J. Speed Hist. Great Brit. vii. xii. 321/1 Destitute of vertue and fluent in vice.
1639 G. Daniel Ecclus. xliii. 53 A Cloud, swolne wth a fluent raine.
c1682 J. Collins Salt & Fishery 2 At Namptwich they have one Pit within the Town, and two without, sufficient to serve the Fourth part of the Nation, the Bryne being so fluent.

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b. Giving freely, generous. Obs. exc. dial.

1633 Breton's Poste with Packet Madde Lett. (rev. ed.) i. 1 A Sonne..bound..through the fluent bounty of a fathers loue.
1639 J. Saltmarsh Pract. Policie 237 If you bee fluent in one kinde, bee sparing in another.
1887 T. Darlington Folk-speech S. Cheshire Fluent, liberal..as ‘fluent i' givin’.

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5.

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a. Of speech, style, etc.: Flowing easily and readily from the tongue or pen.

1625 Bacon Ess. (new ed.) 250 Such as is a fluent and Luxuriant Speech.
1660 A. Wood Life & Times (1891) I. 360 Their fluent praying and preaching.
1670–1 J. Narborough Jrnl. in Acct. Several Late Voy. (1711) i. 70 Their Language is much in the Throat, and not very fluent, but uttered with good deliberation.
1729 Pope Dunciad (new ed.) iii. 197 How fluent nonsense trickles from his tongue!
1828 I. D'Israeli Comm. Life Charles I I. ii. 21 The pain which conversation occasions him whose speech is not fluent.
1866 ‘G. Eliot’ Felix Holt I. v. 126 A soft voice with a clear fluent utterance.

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b. Of a speaker, etc.: Ready in the use of words, able to express oneself readily and easily in speech or writing.

1589 W. Warner Albions Eng. (new ed.) v. xxvii. 119 Rhetoricall I am not with a fluant tongue to ster.
1611 T. Heywood Golden Age i. sig. B, Fluent Mercury Speakes from my tongue.
1737 Pope Epist. of Horace ii. i. 16 Fluent Shakespear scarce effac'd a line.
1785 W. Cowper Task iv. 19 His fluent quill.
1832 H. Martineau Ireland i. 6 Fluent story-tellers.
1882 Farrar in Contemp. Rev. 807 As a speaker..Dean Stanley was by no means fluent.

I would prefer to listen to his Spanish to that of Kaine. His is clear, precise as far as I can tell spoken at a good rhythm.

Ramos is a native speaker, and an eloquent one at that.

Yeah, Kaine's accent and pronunciation sound pretty bad, but I don't know how much that plays into effectiveness and scoring. If he can speak at a 4 level, that's pretty dang good IMO.

I wonder how a gringo accent affects native Spanish speakers.

It depends on whether or not someone is a "sympathetic interlocutor." In my experience, most Hispanics absolutely love it when you try and speak Spanish. However, since he is seeking office and not friendship, he may be seen as something else. I imagine that if Clinton/Kaine throw down on Immigration Reform successfully, his pronunciation will be overlooked. But, the very fact that he's will to go on TV and do live interviews in a second language to reach constituents, and that he had the balls to give a speech in the Senate entirely in Spanish (a first, I think), may get him some traction. I will say that the rules about making fun of someone's accent in Spanish are not PC like they are in English. He will be ribbed about it, perhaps even to his face, but almost always with a little love in the jests.

[Topper]

Don't change the argument, counselor. The word sufficient has never entered into the conversation previously. The contention is Is Tim Kaine fluent? You contended that fluency = Foreign Service (S-5). By their very own definitions (as I provided with a link), fluency = S-4. Sufficient's got nothing to do with the argument. It also causes me to question, "Sufficient for what or whom?" but that's another subject.



Now, you're wrong too. Native speakers can possess fluency in their own language. Most people call this fluidity, but don't get all haughty. Again, most people don't know what fluent and fluency actually mean. All shall turn and bow now toward Oxford.




Ramos is a native speaker, and an eloquent one at that.



It depends on whether or not someone is a "sympathetic interlocutor." In my experience, most Hispanics absolutely love it when you try and speak Spanish. However, since he is seeking office and not friendship, he may be seen as something else. I imagine that if Clinton/Kaine throw down on Immigration Reform successfully, his pronunciation will be overlooked. But, the very fact that he's will to go on TV and do live interviews in a second language to reach constituents, and that he had the balls to give a speech in the Senate entirely in Spanish (a first, I think), may get him some traction. I will say that the rules about making fun of someone's accent in Spanish are not PC like they are in English. He will be ribbed about it, perhaps even to his face, but almost always with a little love in the jests.

Germans are absolutely brutal. They will mock you senselessly if it is not reasonably good.

My argument was that the speech should as close to educated native as possible to be fluent. Ramos has very elegant Spanish to somebody such as myself. I imagine many speak it well though.

I remember hearing how badly Cruz speaks in comparison to Rubio. Harry Reid's sons speak Spanish and were promoted on Spanish speaking channels during his campaigns.

[myboynoah]

Mitt speaks French.

Write in Mitt!!!

[wuapinmon]

Germans are absolutely brutal. They will mock you senselessly if it is not reasonably good.

My argument was that the speech should as close to educated native as possible to be fluent. Ramos has very elegant Spanish to somebody such as myself. I imagine many speak it well though.

I remember hearing how badly Cruz speaks in comparison to Rubio. Harry Reid's sons speak Spanish and were promoted on Spanish speaking channels during his campaigns.

Cruz does not speak Spanish fluently. He is an Intermediate Mid/Low heritage speaker.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I know it troubles HFN when Trump is compared to fascist dictators but I think an accurate comparison among world leaders is Putin. Trump's knuckle draggers have already impacted the GOP platform. This is scary stuff.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/...really-a-thing

Additionally, I do think Putin and the FSB are helping Trump in any way they can. http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/...c-emails-trump

Only the deluded, cognitively disadvantaged or willfully ignorant would think Trump would handle US interests re.Russia than Clinton.

It doesn't trouble me, I just think it is silly. Much like it was silly when moveon.org was claiming that W would declare martial law and become a dictator, much like far right people claim Obama is a secret Muslim whose goal is to destroy America, etc.

Trump's baseless promises of a wall or blocking Muslims from entering the country are just as foolish as Obama's promises of shutting down Gitmo and ending military action in Iraq/Afghanistan, HW's famed "no new taxes" promises, Clinton's definition of "is" is, Reagan not recalling if he gave weapons and money to the Afghan's we are now fighting. I guess I just see all presidential and presidential candidates lying/pandering with the same grain of meaningless salt.

[YOhio]

Just when you think it couldn't get any worse than Trump and Clinton Wuap starts a Spanish knowledge vomit.

[wuapinmon]

Jeb Bush would be an Intermediate High/Advanced Low speaker (somewhere between S-3/S-4) from what I see in this interview.

[frank ryan]

Jeb Bush would be an Intermediate High/Advanced Low speaker (somewhere between S-3/S-4) from what I see in this interview.

This needs its own thread.

[wuapinmon]

Just when you think it couldn't get any worse than Trump and Clinton Wuap starts a Spanish knowledge vomit.

This is how I picture YOhio when he tries to be mean.