More Mormons implicated in U.S. use of Torture.

[RobinFinderson]

Jay Bybee, second only to Dick Cheney, may go down in history as the name most associated with this ugly chapter of U.S. history in which our government used torture to defend the Republic.

Now it has come out that Jay Bybee based his opinion on the expertise of two Idahoan psychologists, James Elmer Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. The combo of Idaho + "Jessen" set off my Mormon-radar in a big way, but my hunch was only confirmed when I read this Vanity Fair article about the torture memos.

Polygamy, racism, homophobia and now torture... what a legacy for God's one true church.

[byu71]

Jay Bybee, second only to Dick Cheney, may go down in history as the name most associated with this ugly chapter of U.S. history in which our government used torture to defend the Republic.

Now it has come out that Jay Bybee based his opinion on the expertise of two Idahoan psychologists, James Elmer Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. The combo of Idaho + "Jessen" set off my Mormon-radar in a big way, but my hunch was only confirmed when I read this Vanity Fair article about the torture memos.

Polygamy, racism, homophobia and now torture... what a legacy for God's one true church.

You know I don't mind criticism of the church or my beliefs. I will do so on occasion.

However, when one takes it too far it makes that person look like a simpleton's jackass.

[I.J. Reilly]

Jay Bybee, second only to Dick Cheney, may go down in history as the name most associated with this ugly chapter of U.S. history in which our government used torture to defend the Republic.

Now it has come out that Jay Bybee based his opinion on the expertise of two Idahoan psychologists, James Elmer Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. The combo of Idaho + "Jessen" set off my Mormon-radar in a big way, but my hunch was only confirmed when I read this Vanity Fair article about the torture memos.

Polygamy, racism, homophobia and now torture... what a legacy for God's one true church.

Oh goodness. Are you trying to claim that the church has some sort of institutional inclination towards torture? I think that is quite a stretch.

[DU Ute]

Jay Bybee, second only to Dick Cheney, may go down in history as the name most associated with this ugly chapter of U.S. history in which our government used torture to defend the Republic.

Now it has come out that Jay Bybee based his opinion on the expertise of two Idahoan psychologists, James Elmer Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. The combo of Idaho + "Jessen" set off my Mormon-radar in a big way, but my hunch was only confirmed when I read this Vanity Fair article about the torture memos.

Polygamy, racism, homophobia and now torture... what a legacy for God's one true church.

[RobinFinderson]

You know I don't mind criticism of the church or my beliefs. I will do so on occasion.

However, when one takes it too far it makes that person look like a simpleton's jackass.

I think if average people are asked to share their thoughts on Mormonism (we used to ask people what they thought all the time on the mission) the list will go something like this:

Tight-knit families.
Good citizens.
Polygamy.
Blacks and the priesthood.

That would have been the list from my missionary days. Today we could probably add:

Against Gay Marriage.

I don't think that Pro-Torture would yet make the cut, but it might. We'll have to see to what extent the media makes those connections.

And I am not making these observations with any sort of glee in my heart. It really makes me sad, because the good members of the church, including most of my family, do not deserve to have their names associated with most of this.

[UtahDan]

Maybe someone can explain why Bybee hasn't lost his job as a judge for these illegal memos he wrote.

[All-American]

I think if average people are asked to share their thoughts on Mormonism (we used to ask people what they thought all the time on the mission) the list will go something like this:

Tight-knit families.
Good citizens.
Polygamy.
Blacks and the priesthood.

That would have been the list from my missionary days. Today we could probably add:

Against Gay Marriage.

I don't think that Pro-Torture would yet make the cut, but it might. We'll have to see to what extent the media makes those connections.

And I am not making these observations with any sort of glee in my heart. It really makes me sad, because the good members of the church, including most of my family, do not deserve to have their names associated with most of this.

If the concept of torture ever gets attached to the Mormon church, I will give you a dollar.

[Indy Coug]

I think if average people are asked to share their thoughts on Mormonism (we used to ask people what they thought all the time on the mission) the list will go something like this:

Tight-knit families.
Good citizens.
Polygamy.
Blacks and the priesthood.

That would have been the list from my missionary days. Today we could probably add:

Against Gay Marriage.

I don't think that Pro-Torture would yet make the cut, but it might. We'll have to see to what extent the media makes those connections.

And I am not making these observations with any sort of glee in my heart. It really makes me sad, because the good members of the church, including most of my family, do not deserve to have their names associated with most of this.

Is it really "pro-torture", or does it really boil down to the propriety of waterboarding? Expanding the waterboarding issue to something as broad as "pro-torture" with all the mutilation, electric shock and Shawn Cassidy 8-tracks that go along with it is intellectually disingenuous to put it mildly.

[byu71]

I think if average people are asked to share their thoughts on Mormonism (we used to ask people what they thought all the time on the mission) the list will go something like this:

Tight-knit families.
Good citizens.
Polygamy.
Blacks and the priesthood.

That would have been the list from my missionary days. Today we could probably add:

Against Gay Marriage.

I don't think that Pro-Torture would yet make the cut, but it might. We'll have to see to what extent the media makes those connections.

And I am not making these observations with any sort of glee in my heart. It really makes me sad, because the good members of the church, including most of my family, do not deserve to have their names associated with most of this.

People who are hateful enough to make the association or ignorant enough to do so don't worry me.

Of the things you mentioned, the polygamy thing is the only one that really bothers me.

What bothers me most is the feeling that lays under a lot of smiling mormon faces that we as a people are "better" than other people. That attitude is bothersome within the church as we look member to member.

Members of the church are basically really good people who will take people into their hearts and nurture them as much as any other group. Again, the only problem is if once taken in if you don't join the church after a while they kick you back out on the street. That is far more bothersome than any of the other accusations.

[RobinFinderson]

If the concept of torture ever gets attached to the Mormon church, I will give you a dollar.

If you don't think the fact that three of the top underwriters for the government's use of torture were Mormon isn't going to associate the Church with this controversy, you have another thing coming. Don't shoot the messenger. Gird up your loins and get ready for the storm.

[LiveCoug]

I think if average people are asked to share their thoughts on Mormonism (we used to ask people what they thought all the time on the mission) the list will go something like this:

Tight-knit families.
Good citizens.
Polygamy.
Blacks and the priesthood.

That would have been the list from my missionary days. Today we could probably add:

Against Gay Marriage.

I don't think that Pro-Torture would yet make the cut, but it might. We'll have to see to what extent the media makes those connections.

And I am not making these observations with any sort of glee in my heart. It really makes me sad, because the good members of the church, including most of my family, do not deserve to have their names associated with most of this.

Can you be a good citizen and be against gay marriage? According to the left, that is impossible!

[byu71]

If you don't think the fact that three of the top underwriters for the government's use of torture were Mormon isn't going to associate the Church with this controversy, you have another thing coming. Don't shoot the messenger. Gird up your loins and get ready for the storm.

How do you figure Obama's associations and yet he got elected President. People don't judge you on who you associate with do they.

[YOhio]

If you don't think the fact that three of the top underwriters for the government's use of torture were Mormon isn't going to associate the Church with this controversy, you have another thing coming. Don't shoot the messenger. Gird up your loins and get ready for the storm.

The role of Jessen and Mitchell has been public info since the 1997 VF article. Bybee's role has been known even longer. As the economy gets going again, the D's will stop using the torture debate as a distraction and these names along with their relationship with Mormonism will be forgotten.

[RobinFinderson]

How do you figure Obama's associations and yet he got elected President. People don't judge you on who you associate with do they.

Obama's associations, both legit (J. Wright) and illegitimate (W. Ayers), did hurt him... just not enough to lose the election.

[UtahDan]

If you don't think the fact that three of the top underwriters for the government's use of torture were Mormon isn't going to associate the Church with this controversy, you have another thing coming. Don't shoot the messenger. Gird up your loins and get ready for the storm.

Particularly when everyone agrees that, with the benefit of hindsight, harsh interrogation techniques were not justified.