What is torture (harsh interrogation)?

[FMCoug]

Anything you wouldn't want done to yourself.

Wow. That's pretty extreme. I wouldn't want to be in jail, forced to wear a jumpsuit, eat what they tell me too, etc. I guess jail is torture!

[wuapinmon]

Wow. That's pretty extreme. I wouldn't want to be in jail, forced to wear a jumpsuit, eat what they tell me too, etc. I guess jail is torture!

That's too broad of a definition. I would expect better of an academic. You may not want to be put in jail for 10 years but that doesn't mean a ten year jail sentence is torture.

"Anything you would not want done to yourself" is using a reflexive pronoun as a direct object. I would not want to go to jail, but going to jail isn't really "to myself." I was using the definition in the sense of "to myself," as in "my body," in the short term.

[KillerDog]

"Anything you would not want done to yourself" is using a reflexive pronoun as a direct object. I would not want to go to jail, but going to jail isn't really "to myself." I was using the definition in the sense of "to myself," as in "my body," in the short term.

Fine, I can't stand brussel sprouts. Even eating one is disgusting to me and I would not want to be forced to eat even one...

[UtahDan]

Define "severe pain or suffering".

Exactly. Using that undefined term in the definition itself makes it purely subjective and meaningless. I don't think there is a consensus on what torture is. I think it is very much in the eye of the beholder at this point.

[Indy Coug]

Exactly. Using that undefined term in the definition itself makes it purely subjective and meaningless. I don't think there is a consensus on what torture is. I think it is very much in the eye of the beholder at this point.

Telling my daughter to load the dishwasher probably would get me sent to The Hague if the proper authorities were notified.

[myboynoah]

Telling my daughter to load the dishwasher probably would get me sent to The Hague if the proper authorities were notified.

Don't even try to take away her cellphone.

[Fiyero]

Calling torture 'harsh interrogation' is like calling rape 'surprise sex.'

[Hallelujah]

Calling torture 'harsh interrogation' is like calling rape 'surprise sex.'

I didn't make that up. The MSM and the administration have.

[Hallelujah]

What about people outside your family? Would you, personally, be willing to torture someone using any of the methods you described, to save someone you didn't know? What if it was to save a different accused terrorist? What if we knew they were going to bomb a prison full of depraved murderers? Do we torture them to save the vile among us? How would you feel, being the torturer, if you found out later that someone you had tortured was innocent of any charges and truly knew nothing?

If a student came to me with this same question, and was truly curious enough to consider the ramifications of torture on the torturer, I would recommend that they read Franz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth. After that reading, I would ask them to ask me questions about the text as if they were the professor writing an exam. I would then have them answer their own questions. Whatever opinion they expressed to me, after reading Fanon's book, would be acceptable to me, as long as it took Fanon's experiences into consideration. I don't expect them to agree with me. I just know that I couldn't torture someone and wouldn't want anyone else to have to do it.

I would rather torture someone guilty of a crime than let hundreds, even thousands of innocents die. I think the innocent have more rights than the guilty. But that's just me. And if you think by the US being kinder and gentler to terrorists is going to in any way change the terrorist behavior against their captives, then you have lost touch with reality. See, we don't live in some academic and social sandbox. Reality, baby!

[wuapinmon]

I would rather torture someone guilty of a crime than let hundreds, even thousands of innocents die. I think the innocent have more rights than the guilty. But that's just me. And if you think by the US being kinder and gentler to terrorists is going to in any way change the terrorist behavior against their captives, then you have lost touch with reality. See, we don't live in some academic and social sandbox. Reality, baby!

Reality? Have you ever tortured someone? Have you even considered the tremendous psychological toll it takes on someone to torture another human being? What does it do to that person's family life? How much does it completely fuck them up as a human? You talk tough, but I doubt very seriously that you have what it takes to strap someone down and torture them on the possibility that they MIGHT know something useful.

You completely ignored my questions, as expected. So, I'll ask just two this time to see if you can muster an answer:

1. If you knew that a convicted felon was the one-and-only target of a terrorist, would you torture someone to get information to save their life?

2. If you knew that a 21-year-old woman, guilty of nothing more than being a target, were to be killed, would you torture someone to get information to save her life?

If they answer is not the same to both questions, explain yourself.

[KillerDog]

Reality? Have you ever tortured someone? Have you even considered the tremendous psychological toll it takes on someone to torture another human being? What does it do to that person's family life? How much does it completely fuck them up as a human? You talk tough, but I doubt very seriously that you have what it takes to strap someone down and torture them on the possibility that they MIGHT know something useful.

You completely ignored my questions, as expected. So, I'll ask just two this time to see if you can muster an answer:

1. If you knew that a convicted felon was the one-and-only target of a terrorist, would you torture someone to get information to save their life?

2. If you knew that a 21-year-old woman, guilty of nothing more than being a target, were to be killed, would you torture someone to get information to save her life?

If they answer is not the same to both questions, explain yourself.

I think you bring up good and difficult questions. I studied the law of torture extensively in law school. I had real difficulty determining what was torture and when, if ever, it should be used. I determined that there is probably a time and place for harsh interrogation that falls just short of the technical definitions of torture (many of the things now called torture fall into that category, waterboarding being the most common) but that the difficulty in crafting a rule that both defines those types of interrogation and when they should be used is difficult bordering on impossible.

[Hallelujah]

Reality? Have you ever tortured someone? Have you even considered the tremendous psychological toll it takes on someone to torture another human being? What does it do to that person's family life? How much does it completely fuck them up as a human? You talk tough, but I doubt very seriously that you have what it takes to strap someone down and torture them on the possibility that they MIGHT know something useful.

You completely ignored my questions, as expected. So, I'll ask just two this time to see if you can muster an answer:

1. If you knew that a convicted felon was the one-and-only target of a terrorist, would you torture someone to get information to save their life?

2. If you knew that a 21-year-old woman, guilty of nothing more than being a target, were to be killed, would you torture someone to get information to save her life?

If they answer is not the same to both questions, explain yourself.

Hey dipwad. Didn't you read my post. How many times do I have to state the term "innocent". Innocents like you and me.......err...at least me. You would rather see your family members killed than torture someone? You are the one that is ........ed up.

do you equate sleep depravation / loud music as torture. The same as pulling fingernails, sticking heated rods up someone's rectum, cutting out tongues/eyes, beheadings etc. Yeah, that's what the enemy does regardless of what our standards are. If you equate all those forms of torture to what we do, then you should pack your bags for France or any other EU country.

[Hallelujah]

Reality? Have you ever tortured someone? Have you even considered the tremendous psychological toll it takes on someone to torture another human being? What does it do to that person's family life? How much does it completely fuck them up as a human? You talk tough, but I doubt very seriously that you have what it takes to strap someone down and torture them on the possibility that they MIGHT know something useful.

You completely ignored my questions, as expected. So, I'll ask just two this time to see if you can muster an answer:

1. If you knew that a convicted felon was the one-and-only target of a terrorist, would you torture someone to get information to save their life?

2. If you knew that a 21-year-old woman, guilty of nothing more than being a target, were to be killed, would you torture someone to get information to save her life?

If they answer is not the same to both questions, explain yourself.

Oh and again you forgot that I mentioned hundreds and thousands. Would you have tortured someone if you could have prevented 9/11? That's a real easy one.

[wuapinmon]

Oh and again you forgot that I mentioned hundreds and thousands. Would you have tortured someone if you could have prevented 9/11? That's a real easy one.

Hey dipwad. Didn't you read my post. How many times do I have to state the term "innocent". Innocents like you and me.......err...at least me. You would rather see your family members killed than torture someone? You are the one that is ........ed up.

do you equate sleep depravation / loud music as torture. The same as pulling fingernails, sticking heated rods up someone's rectum, cutting out tongues/eyes, beheadings etc. Yeah, that's what the enemy does regardless of what our standards are. If you equate all those forms of torture to what we do, then you should pack your bags for France or any other EU country.

It's a simple question, how many people would have to be killed before you would say that it wasn't worth torturing someone? 1, 2, 5, 10?

I will answer your questions:

1. As sleep deprivation can actually kill you, I would consider it torture when extended beyond 48 hours.
2. Loud music would not be torture.
3. Sticking heated rods anywhere would be torture.
4. Cutting out tongues is savage.
5. Beheading is execution, not torture.

Just because your enemy tortures does not mean that you have license to do so. Now, answer my question......I triple dog dare you:

DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO STRAP ANOTHER HUMAN BEING DOWN AND TORTURE THEM JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK THEY MIGHT HAVE INFORMATION?

I think you're a dullard who talks tough about being in favor of torture, but you would probably defile yourself and have suicidal thoughts if you actually did it. These are some of the points that Fanon makes in his book. It's easy to say you'd do it; it's quite another thing to do it.

Oh, and another thing:

How would your being a torturer square with the Gospel?

Watch these videos:
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[Hallelujah]

It's a simple question, how many people would have to be killed before you would say that it wasn't worth torturing someone? 1, 2, 5, 10?

I will answer your questions:

1. As sleep deprivation can actually kill you, I would consider it torture when extended beyond 48 hours.
2. Loud music would not be torture.
3. Sticking heated rods anywhere would be torture.
4. Cutting out tongues is savage.
5. Beheading is execution, not torture.

Just because your enemy tortures does not mean that you have license to do so. Now, answer my question......I triple dog dare you:

DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO STRAP ANOTHER HUMAN BEING DOWN AND TORTURE THEM JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK THEY MIGHT HAVE INFORMATION?

I think you're a dullard who talks tough about being in favor of torture, but you would probably defile yourself and have suicidal thoughts if you actually did it. These are some of the points that Fanon makes in his book. It's easy to say you'd do it; it's quite another thing to do it.

Oh, and another thing:

How would your being a torturer square with the Gospel?

Watch these videos:
[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9G2wZ5A2zRA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9G2wZ5A2zRA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
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If it saved innocent Americans, I wouldn't have a problem. Because I wouldn't let them sleep. I wouldn't lose sleep myself. I wouldn't cut out tongues or stick prods up their rectum. Waterboarding, sure. Remember, these were high valued targets, not just your ordinary terrorist.

I put a much higher value on innocent Americans than you do.

Guess who are chomping at the bit to charge the Bushies with torture crimes? The terrorists and leftists. You're in great company.