Another socialist experiment fails

[RobinFinderson]

That funky recall was the socialist experiment. There's nothing like a bunch of public employees furious about abridgement of their benies and scheduled raises to elicit a lot of sympathy from private sector folks, is there. I don't know much about how a politician like Mitt Romney came to be governor of a state like Mass. But I venture it was a like reaction that made it possible.

FYI, there is nothing 'socialist' about the recall. Socialism has to do with who owns the means of production and distribution of goods. The recall was a democratic process of reviewing the outcome of a previous election. I think you are confused on what happened here.

[SeattleUte]

FYI, there is nothing 'socialist' about the recall. Socialism has to do with who owns the means of production and distribution of goods. The recall was a democratic process of reviewing the outcome of a previous election. I think you are confused on what happened here.

Exactly. This recall had a great deal to do with who controls Wisconsin's wealth and revunues, the public or private sectors. The governor didn't keep his job just because of some aesthetic aversion to unions (this isn't Utah it's Wisconsin). People felt the public sector was taking too much of their money.

You seem to have a problem with straightjacketed definitions. Think outside the box, will you.

[RobinFinderson]

Exactly. This recall had a great deal to do with who controls Wisconsin's wealth and revunues, the public or private sectors. The governor didn't keep his job just because of some aesthetic aversion to unions (this isn't Utah it's Wisconsin). People felt the public sector was taking too much of their money.

You seem to have a problem with straightjacketed definitions. Think outside the box, will you.

It isn't thinking outside the box to join the 'everything liberal is socialism!' crowd. So the people of Wisconsin seem to think that they can unilaterally set workers' salaries without the workers forming strategic partnerships to strengthen their bargaining position. If you want to 'think outside the box' on this one, it is as if the people-via-the-government are making a kind of ownership claim (the right to unilaterally declare what the conditions of employment will be, without negotiation) on the labor of the public workers. That sounds more like traditional 'socialism' to me (the people own your labor, and the people will set your pay and define your working conditions, and your rights to privately organize for the purpose of negotiating from a position of strength are stripped by the government, and if you don't like it, you are free to take a hike).

[Pelado]

It isn't thinking outside the box to join the 'everything liberal is socialism!' crowd. So the people of Wisconsin seem to think that they can unilaterally set workers' salaries without the workers forming strategic partnerships to strengthen their bargaining position. If you want to 'think outside the box' on this one, it is as if the people-via-the-government are making a kind of ownership claim (the right to unilaterally declare what the conditions of employment will be, without negotiation) on the labor of the public workers. That sounds more like traditional 'socialism' to me (the people own your labor, and the people will set your pay and define your working conditions, and your rights to privately organize for the purpose of negotiating from a position of strength are stripped by the government, and if you don't like it, you are free to take a hike).

You included contradictory statements.

[RobinFinderson]

You included contradictory statements.

'Socialist' countries do not typically prevent a person from walking away from a job.

[Pelado]

'Socialist' countries do not typically prevent a person from walking away from a job.

They just won't let you leave the country.

[RobinFinderson]

They just won't let you leave the country.

That isn't a socialist tenant either, and most 'socialist' countries allow freedom to emigrate.

BTW, try emigrating from the US if there is a draft, and you are draft-eligible.

[Pelado]

That isn't a socialist tenant either, and most 'socialist' countries allow freedom to emigrate.

BTW, try emigrating from the US if there is a draft, and you are draft-eligible.

Perhaps not, but the practice of preventing citizens from permanently departing seems more common among nations with socialist leanings.

[creekster]

That isn't a socialist tenant either, and most 'socialist' countries allow freedom to emigrate.

BTW, try emigrating from the US if there is a draft, and you are draft-eligible.

I assumed this was not the "take a hike" distinction you were trying to make? Where the means of production are owned by the people no figurative hike can be taken from that system without a literal hike to another country. Wasnt that the disticntion you were alluding to?

[RobinFinderson]

I assumed this was not the "take a hike" distinction you were trying to make? Where the means of production are owned by the people no figurative hike can be taken from that system without a literal hike to another country. Wasnt that the disticntion you were alluding to?

I'm not sure what you are asking, but the distinction I had made earlier was that workers, in socialist countries, are generally free to leave jobs that are not to their liking. They are also generally free to emigrate.

[Pelado]

I assumed this was not the "take a hike" distinction you were trying to make? Where the means of production are owned by the people no figurative hike can be taken from that system without a literal hike to another country. Wasnt that the disticntion you were alluding to?

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know...justice/13983/

[RobinFinderson]

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know...justice/13983/

Right, because millions of social democratic party members, as well as the countries that are run by those parties, are just like the Khmer Rouge.

[Pelado]

Right, because millions of social democratic party members, as well as the countries that are run by those parties, are just like the Khmer Rouge.

Because that's the only socialist government to inflict genocide on its own population.

[SeattleUte]

lol Finderson is becoming more moderate. There are threads here where he's argued that socialism is a wonderful thing. Now it's he's lamenting that SU has "joined the democrats are socialists crowd". See, Cuf changes people!

[RobinFinderson]

Because that's the only socialist government to inflict genocide on its own population.

Should the value of 'capitalist' countries be measured by the length of the Trail of Tears, or by the number of people living in tin shacks under apartheid?