The Church's Changing Position on the Legalization Same-Sex Marriage

[Jacob]

Equal protection has always and will always mean one thing--the government has to treat all people equally and can't discriminate against one subset without a very very difficult-to-overcome burden to show that the discrimination is absolutely necessary and there is no other way. These exceptions are very rare.

I think you mean that you wonder what new minority group will complain about being discriminated against next. I am happy to report that I think we are just about out of groups we have discriminated against. Women and racial minorities and now LGBT groups have all asserted and been given rights (or are in the process and you won't be surprised by their calls to equality).

I think we are probably almost there to a society where separate but equal is fully rejected and government treats all with equal respect.

Isn't that glorious? You really aren't in favor of rolling back equal treatment are you? You don't want to outlaw interracial marriage again or bar women from voting, right?

The the supreme has not ruled that gays are a protected class. The 9th circuit hasn't either, they applied rational basis standard. What are you talking about?

[The Rambam]

The the supreme has not ruled that gays are a protected class. The 9th circuit hasn't either, they applied rational basis standard. What are you talking about?

Right. Courts have ruled there is no rational basis for discriminating against homosexuals. I don't think there is another class of people being discriminated against in America that will surprise Tex by asking for the discrimination to stop. I can't think of any other classes that we try to keep separate while claiming they are being treated equally.

[Tex]

As it concerns civil rights, the discussion is a non-starter. No one is blocking gays from voting. There are no separate drinking fountains or bathrooms for homo- and heterosexuals. No municipal bus system forces gays to sit in the back. There are already anti-discrimination laws on the books for employment, and gays can now openly serve in the military. And if we're talking about the traditional definition of marriage (certainly not a civil right), no gay person in America is prevented from marrying.

The great amusing truth in this discussion about the LDS church's position on gay marriage is that historically Mormons have probably experienced as great or greater civil right disenfranchisement than gays.

[Jacob]

I can't think of any other classes that we try to keep separate while claiming they are being treated equally.

FIFY.

[Jeff Lebowski]

As it concerns civil rights, the discussion is a non-starter. No one is blocking gays from voting. There are no separate drinking fountains or bathrooms for homo- and heterosexuals. No municipal bus system forces gays to sit in the back. There are already anti-discrimination laws on the books for employment, and gays can now openly serve in the military.

Not in Utah. There are maybe a couple of cities that have implemented laws against discrimination based on sexual orientation, but in the majority of the state it is perfectly legal to fire, evict, or refuse to do business with someone solely for being gay. Even though the church has recently expressed support for such laws, Utah lawmakers are strongly opposed. Legislation is proposed every year (by the Democratic minority) but it never makes it out of committee.

And if we're talking about the traditional definition of marriage (certainly not a civil right), no gay person in America is prevented from marrying.

Yes. As long as they do not marry the person they are most inclined to choose as their partner and soulmate for life.

The great amusing truth in this discussion about the LDS church's position on gay marriage is that historically Mormons have probably experienced as great or greater civil right disenfranchisement than gays.

That's nonsense.

[Jacob]

Yes. As long as they do not marry the person they are most inclined to choose as their partner and soulmate for life.

They can marry whomever they chose. They just can't get a government certificate if they choose someone of the same gender. I'm sure you don't think so, but this is an important distinction. Nobody is prohibiting any relationship.

[Jeff Lebowski]

They can marry whomever they chose. They just can't get a government certificate if they choose someone of the same gender. I'm sure you don't think so, but this is an important distinction. Nobody is prohibiting any relationship.

So you mean non-binding fake marriages that carry none of legal benefits of heterosexual marriage? Yeah, I suppose that is possible. You got me there.

[New Mexican Disaster]

So you mean non-binding fake marriages that carry none of legal benefits of heterosexual marriage? Yeah, I suppose that is possible. You got me there.

Yeah, Lebowski, lets you and I get married today. We'll get just the fantasy portion with none of the rights attached.

[Jacob]

So you mean non-binding fake marriages that carry none of legal benefits of heterosexual marriage? Yeah, I suppose that is possible. You got me there.

No, that's not what I mean. Such marriages can be binding and can typically include all the legal benefits of state-sponsored marriage, but often not the legal detriments. But you don't like to discuss such things dispassionately and are generally not interested in any contrary POV on this subject, so I'll bow out.

[Jeff Lebowski]

No, that's not what I mean. Such marriages can be binding and can typically include all the legal benefits of state-sponsored marriage, but often not the legal detriments.

You lost me. Are you talking about civil unions?

But you don't like to discuss such things dispassionately and are generally not interested in any contrary POV on this subject, so I'll bow out.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yeah, Lebowski, lets you and I get married today. We'll get just the fantasy portion with none of the rights attached.

Wow, I am flattered with your proposal. You mind if I think it over for a couple of day? I will get back to you on Monday.

PS: Do you grind your teeth at night? That might be a deal-killer.

[EuropeanFootballMale]

They can marry whomever they chose. They just can't get a government certificate if they choose someone of the same gender. I'm sure you don't think so, but this is an important distinction. Nobody is prohibiting any relationship.

For the life of me I can't figure out what you mean here. That little government certificate is the marriage.

[Non Sequitur]

But you don't like to discuss such things dispassionately and are generally not interested in any contrary POV on this subject, so I'll bow out.

When I was in the 7th grade, I got in a fight with Gary Trapp. He was kicking the crap out of me. I was pinned to ground, he on top of me, threatening to push my face into a nearby pile of dog crap. At that point I did the only thing I could think of...I said, "Hey dude, I think I'm going to have to bow out."

[Jacob]

That little government certificate is the marriage.

So sorry you feel that way.

[DU Ute]

So sorry you feel that way.

I'm a dentist. Screw the certification.