Important Prop. 8 Ruling Today

[Jacob]

Just like inter-racial marriage.

No. Not like that.

[LA Ute]

Just like inter-racial marriage.

That is the issue. Are the two "just like" each other or not? That has never been decided by the USSC.

[Flystripper]

I am not sure that I have the energy for this debate again. I will just say that I am glad my gay friends can continue to mary in some jurisdictions and I hope that someday they will be able to choose to marry in State of the Union. I think It will happen eventually and I might even shed a tear or happiness like some LDS folks did in 1978.

I will also say that sometimes it takes judges to nudge along the majority toward a certain social acceptance. The majority of people will always dislike these type of rulings and will fight against being nudged, but most of these judicial pushes in the relm of civil rights seem to have worked out for the best.

[UtahDan]

I think you can infer it from all the evidence. I never said it was a great strategy, that's not the point. But I think it is working or will work.

The thing that is bringing more social acceptance has little or nothing to do with what the courts have done. It has to do with people knowing gay couples, developing empathy for them and seeing the sky is not falling as a result of them being together and raising children.

Those boogeymen seemed a lot more real before people started having a body of evidence to work from.

[smokymountainrain]

I thought we had done a poll on it a while back, but I couldn't find it. My view, whether from a poll we did or just from reading 10,000 posts on the subject, is that CUF probably favors gay marriage, but with a sizable opposition. Maybe at 60%-40% or 65%-35%.

Agreed. 65-35 or 70-30

[UtahDan]

That is the issue. Are the two "just like" each other or not? That has never been decided by the USSC.

Out of curiosity, and anyone can answer this question ss well, do you agree with me that it is inevitable that at some point they're going to be treated the same whether they are just alike or not? For those who oppose gay marriage, do you feel like you have a real opportunity to prevent it or do you just feel like you're fighting the good fight at this point?

I think it is inevitable, but that is just my perspective. And it is shaded by the fact that I want it to be.

[Jacob]

The thing that is bringing more social acceptance has little or nothing to do with what the courts have done. It has to do with people knowing gay couples, developing empathy for them and seeing the sky is not falling as a result of them being together and raising children.

Those boogeymen seemed a lot more real before people started having a body of evidence to work from.

So says you. But the bolded portion proves my point. I don't doubt that other stuff you mention has something to do with it.

[Flystripper]

Agreed. 65-35 or 70-30

funny.. I think it depends on what side of the issue you are on. To me it feels like it is:

30% strongly against
40% ambivilant and don't really take part in the debate, but but would probably vote against based on the direction of their church leadership
30% strongly for

[RobinFinderson]

I think you can infer it from all the evidence. I never said it was a great strategy, that's not the point. But I think it is working or will work.

Let us be perfectly accurate -- for SOME people this may be about seeking social acceptance, and for SOME people this may be about seeking rights.

I would imagine, for the vast majority of gay men and women, they could hardly care less whether Mormons and Catholics 'socially accept' their right to marry. If I were in their shoes, I would simply be happy to have the right to marry and get on with my life, with nary a concern about what they thought of me in Utah.

[smokymountainrain]

funny.. I think it depends on what side of the issue you are on. To me it feels like it is:

30% strongly against
40% ambivilant and don't really take part in the debate, but but would probably vote against based on the direction of their church leadership
30% strongly for

I'm pretty sure you and I are on the same side and I could concede your numbers as my guess was more a reflection of those who are against.

edit: initially I saw the 40% ambivalent, but didn't read the rest, so I guess we disagree there. I'd say the 40%, if forced to choose,
would take the pro gay marriage side.

[Flystripper]

I'm pretty sure you and I are on the same side and I could concede your numbers as my guess was more a reflection of those who are against.

ahh I see

[Jacob]

Let us be perfectly accurate -- for SOME people this may be about seeking social acceptance, and for SOME people this may be about seeking rights.

I would imagine, for the vast majority of gay men and women, they could hardly care less whether Mormons and Catholics 'socially accept' their right to marry. If I were in their shoes, I would simply be happy to have the right to marry and get on with my life, with nary a concern about what they thought of me in Utah.

And I would imagine...
We are just stating our opinions here, of course.
If a gay man in a domestic partnership that affords him the same bundle of rights that a marriage would afford him doesn't care about social acceptance, then why would he sue the state for a certificate that says "marriage" rather than "domestic partnership?" Probably because visitation rights and spousal health benefits are not the primary concern.
I've seen several statements from leaders of the various advocacy groups and many more from regular people say that they really want the word "marriage" even if the benefits of civil unions and domestic partnerships are the same.

[byu71]

At this point it has become a non-event to me. I don't understand why the gay activists want it so bad and I don't know why the "don't let em marry" crowd are so against it.

As far as social acceptance. It wouldn't matter if 60% found it socially unacceptable, social acceptance is all about how the "elite" feel about what is socially acceptable.

One Hollywood superstar, one University President, outweigh 100 farmers from Southern Utah when the press decides to tell you what is socially acceptable.

[Jacob]

Out of curiosity, and anyone can answer this question ss well, do you agree with me that it is inevitable that at some point they're going to be treated the same whether they are just alike or not? For those who oppose gay marriage, do you feel like you have a real opportunity to prevent it or do you just feel like you're fighting the good fight at this point?

I think it is inevitable, but that is just my perspective. And it is shaded by the fact that I want it to be.

I think the supreme court will not rule like the 9th circuit. We've passed constitutional amendments in Utah and every state that has taken up the issue. So I don't think it is inevitable that the traditional marriage folks lose this one.
I don't feel especially strongly on either side of the issue. I do feel strongly about how the courts should act and I am outraged by the opinions mandating gay marriage. I am not outraged by states that have passed gay marriage laws.

Just to point out a minor (sarcasm) difference in the current cases and the Loving v Virgina case...that was was really, really simple.

"it is simply not possible for a state law to be valid under our Constitution which makes the criminality of an act depend upon the race of the actor."

Loving deals with criminal penalties and a constitution that specifically states that you can't make race laws. We don't have either here. i would be on your side if there was a law prohibiting gay marriage-like relationships. Any court should strike that down much as they did in Loving.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I can't think of any good reason why a gay couple should be denied the right to sit in a board room and pay TWO lawyers $300/hr each to watch them argue over who gets to keep the Barbra Streisand records and the antique movie poster collection.

Either way the lawyers win. Congrats to all the family law guys. You just increased your pool of potential clients!