Game on: Obama v Romney, the 2012 campaign for the office of the POTUS

[Goatnapper'96]

This all seems to prove that the smart thing to do would be to lose all the deductions and get a top rate around 20% for both cap gains and OI.

That is just not fair. Taxes are not about what a government needs to accomplish its role in a civilized society they are about fairness.

[Jacob]

This is very interesting:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...-returns&hl=en

In 1967 George Romney released an unprecedented 12 years of tax returns. They showed that he made almost $3 million over that time as President of AMC, governor etc. But he kept only 1/3 of that as take home pay. The rest went to taxes and charity. A quick google search reveals that the top income tax rate in '63 was 91% for income over $400k and 75% on income over $100k. No wonder George cut back Mitt's allowance in college and told him to study more.

Tax rates:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/f...d-20110909.pdf

Adjusted for inflation puts the top rates in '63 are 91% for income over $2.9m and 75% for income over $733k. Also, 50% for income over $234k.

[Ma'ake]

What middle class earner pays a real rate of over 15%? With all the available deductions and tax credits, I suspect one must earn over $100,000 to even start paying a real rate of 10%. Most "middle class" earners probably receive EIC and actually get a net refund.

But I guess facts have no place in all of this.

I make good dinero, I'm pretty sure I'm paying more than 20%, federal.

But I would argue the growth in the citizenry eligible for EIC is proof of the income distribution becoming more skewed. In a class warfare kind of way, when conservatives point out that half the nation doesn't pay taxes, it reinforces the distribution of income point, not so much makes the point conservatives are trying to convey, which is "Shut up, you don't pay anyway! Without the rich you are nothing!"

Since I don't pay tithing, but feel obligated to help out my fellow man, I work with a lot of folks who are in the struggling class. Holy shit, we've got big problems. My primary concern is the growing numbers in the struggling class. Most of the time they don't care who is Democrat and who is Republican, or what that even really means, but they know they're getting f---ed, it's getting worse, and the politicians and rich folks are getting fabulously wealthy.

I told a stockbroker today that a lot of folks find general agreement with the basic claims of the OWS movement, namely the notion that the whole system is rigged toward the rich, and he was stunned that anyone would agree with that group of worthless hippies. Dude works on Wall Street, never wanders over to Main Street.

From the people I interact with, I would say OWS is the canary. The distribution of income stats buttress the point.

Good people who after WWII got factory jobs and made good money, catapulting into the middle class, are really only qualified to deliver pizzas, today. After the financial meltdown, a lot of businesses discovered they could get the same amount of work done with fewer people. (Granted, the survivors have much higher stress levels now and are ready to bolt their organizations once the economy improves.)

But from an aggregate productivity standpoint, the 14 million unemployed are just not needed. Sure we need people to have jobs, but businesses aren't convinced they need to hire anyone, since scared workers are much harder working workers.

From a deficit standpoint we need entitlement reform, we need more revenue from the 1%, and I think we need to reform taxes so that everyone has to pay *some* tax. We really, really need tangible proof that we're all in this together, both from the bottom looking up and from the top looking at the losers of society.

With (some) CEOs making 2500 times what an entry level person in their corp makes, and throngs of downsized employees making a fraction of what they were, and many more just out of a job, we're in some shallow water with a nasty rocky bottom. The American Dream is becoming a cynical chuckle for too many.

[Ma'ake]

OK, one more minute on the soapbox, then I'll shut up.

Canada is deemed by the (conservative) Heritage Foundation to have greater economic freedom than the US. Canada, the socialist paradise, with higher tax rates on the rich and universal healthcare.

Canadians are only 82% productive as Americans, but Americans have much, much higher rates of economic anxiety, manifested levels of cortisol (stress hormone), have much shorter vacation times, etc.

[Babs]

The question is if mitt loses, do we see him again in 2016 or is it time to let the dogs out for good?

The funniest part of the debate a week ago was when Romney explained that he's not a career politician, and doesn't make a habit of running for office, but only runs for office when he feels it is his moral obligation to do so. The others were going to let him get away with it, but Newt absolutely put him through the wringer, listing all the campaigns Romney's been involved in over the last three decades.

[CardiacCoug]

The funniest part of the debate a week ago was when Romney explained that he's not a career politician, and doesn't make a habit of running for office, but only runs for office when he feels it is his moral obligation to do so. The others were going to let him get away with it, but Newt absolutely put him through the wringer, listing all the campaigns Romney's been involved in over the last three decades.

Followed I think by Romney saying he only is in politics because he doesnt need any more money and he didn't beat Ted Kennedy but at least he forced him to take out a mortgage on one of his homes.

Not one of Romney's finest moments for sure. He can't help but say stuff like that. Henry Eyring had the same problem when in a general conference talk he was talking about getting out of debt and gave as an example "remembering that they owned a property" in the bay area that they could sell to follow the Prophet's counsel. That probably went over great in Latin America.

[oxcoug]

Canada is deemed by the (conservative) Heritage Foundation to have greater economic freedom than the US. Canada, the socialist paradise, with higher tax rates on the rich and universal healthcare.

I don't know but I wld bet that the reason for this is that the US is in the top three for highest corporate tax rates among industrialized nations.

[beefytee]

OK, one more minute on the soapbox, then I'll shut up.

Canada is deemed by the (conservative) Heritage Foundation to have greater economic freedom than the US. Canada, the socialist paradise, with higher tax rates on the rich and universal healthcare.

Canadians are only 82% productive as Americans, but Americans have much, much higher rates of economic anxiety, manifested levels of cortisol (stress hormone), have much shorter vacation times, etc.

This is not correct. I haven't seen effective tax rates compared, but straight rates are lower in Canada for the wealthy than in the US.

[Clark Addison]

What middle class earner pays a real rate of over 15%? With all the available deductions and tax credits, I suspect one must earn over $100,000 to even start paying a real rate of 10%. Most "middle class" earners probably receive EIC and actually get a net refund.

But I guess facts have no place in all of this.

I hadn't read this thread yet, but I actually came here to post something like this after reading this article, where Mitt talks about his effective tax rate (about 15%):

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/17/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1

According to the White House Press Secretary,

""Everybody who's working hard ought to pay their fair share, and and that includes millionaires who might be paying an effective tax rate of 15% when folks making $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000 a year are paying much more," Carney said, adding that Obama "thinks we ought to fix that."

When I read this, I thought the same thing that MBN said here. How many people really pay an effective rate of over 15%? I went back and looked at my 2010 taxes, and I paid just over 10%. Granted, I have 4 kids and a decent amount of deductions, but I doubt there are very many people who make $50,000 or $70,000 a year who are paying $7,500 or $10,500 in Federal Income Tax.

[myboynoah]

I hadn't read this thread yet, but I actually came here to post something like this after reading this article, where Mitt talks about his effective tax rate (about 15%):

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/17/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1

According to the White House Press Secretary,

""Everybody who's working hard ought to pay their fair share, and and that includes millionaires who might be paying an effective tax rate of 15% when folks making $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000 a year are paying much more," Carney said, adding that Obama "thinks we ought to fix that."

When I read this, I thought the same thing that MBN said here. How many people really pay an effective rate of over 15%? I went back and looked at my 2010 taxes, and I paid just over 10%. Granted, I have 4 kids and a decent amount of deductions, but I doubt there are very many people who make $50,000 or $70,000 a year who are paying $7,500 or $10,500 in Federal Income Tax.

None of them should be. Ma'ake is crazy to be paying 20%, unless he is doing very, very, very well. If so, then as Obama has made apparent, Ma'ake deserves to pay more.

Here is a list of deductions/credits everyone should be taking:

• Standard or Itemized Deduction (take you pick)
• Exemptions (the more kids the better, but hardly a big return on the overall costs)
• Education Credit (for those with kids in college; again, not much considering the costs)
• Child Tax Credit (only for kids under 17)
• American Opportunity Credit (this was something I missed, but the IRS kindly notified me and sent me a check)

Who knows, there may be more. If you can't do this yourself, hire someone or buy a program. It will be worth it.

This does not take into account EIC, which is a boon for many "middle class." No way do any of these people pay even close to 15% effective rate. Most are probably paying nothing and still getting a check back from the government.

I don't understand why this isn't getting any press.

[Babs]

Followed I think by Romney saying he only is in politics because he doesnt need any more money and he didn't beat Ted Kennedy but at least he forced him to take out a mortgage on one of his homes.

LoL! I forgot about that. He said he was so proud when Ted had to take out a mortgage to win the race. Romney: he may not be electable, but at least he has enough money to bankrupt the other guy.

[myboynoah]

H&R Block has a free tax estimator here.

Using the estimator for three different "middle class" incomes ($90,000, $60,000 and $35,000), married filing jointly with two kids (ages 14 & 16), the standard deduction and only the child tax credit, the results are as follows:

$90,000 income
2011 estimated tax - $6,690
Effective tax rate - 7.4%

$60,000 income
2011 estimated tax - $2,190
Effective tax rate - 3.7%

$35,000 income
2011 estimated tax - $0
Effective tax rate - 0%
Plus, because of EIC and child tax credit, this "tax payer" gets a refund of $3,460.

Ma'ake is doing very, very, very well to be paying over 20% federal.

[YOhio]

Ma'ake is doing very, very, very well to be paying over 20% federal.

Wow. mbn is trying to divide us with the bitter politics of envy.

[CardiacCoug]

Romney needs to stop talking about his income, taxes, etc.

He said something about how he makes very little giving occasional speeches. Apparently he only made $375K from speeches.

Even though everybody with any modicum of knowledge of taxes/finance would already have known that Romney pays 15% in taxes since his income would obviously be primarily investment income, he needs to just shut up about this stuff since the media love to exploit anything he says to fit the narrative of Romney as rich and out of touch.

[Moliere]

I make good dinero, I'm pretty sure I'm paying more than 20%, federal.

I make a decent middle class salary and I didn't pay any income taxes until 2010, at which point my ETR was 1%. For me it took 7 years removed from college to actually pay into the FIT system. That's crazy.....but I'm not complaining