North Korea launched a long range missle.

[UtahDan]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

We will do nothing more than condemn it. Iran, take note.

[YOhio]

No. Obama called for the UN to punish NoKo for launching the missile. If that doesn't put the fear of God into Kim, I don't know what will.

“This provocation underscores the need for action—not just this afternoon at the U.N. Security Council, but in our determination to prevent the spread of these weapons,” Mr. Obama said. “Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something.”

This is going to be interesting to watch play out. Not only does this upset the U.S., but also Japan, China, Russia and South Korea. Kim has essentially flipped the bird at all of his fellow participants in the six-party talks. It's rare to find an issue that these countries find a basis of agreement, but this is one. The problem is that there is no real solution. Sanctions don't work because of the NoKo governments indifference to the welfare of it's citizens. Military action won't be easy because China, Russia and SoKo will have a huge refugee problem on their hands. So what's the solution? Quick regime overthrow with a quick installation of a UN governing agency?

As difficult as the first year in the Bush administration was, I think Obama has been hit with more in the first three months than any president in recent memory. This will be a huge test for his foreign policy team.

[UtahDan]

No. Obama called for the UN to punish NoKo for launching the missile. If that doesn't put the fear of God into Kim, I don't know what will.



This is going to be interesting to watch play out. Not only does this upset the U.S., but also Japan, China, Russia and South Korea. Kim has essentially flipped the bird at all of his fellow participants in the six-party talks. It's rare to find an issue that these countries find a basis of agreement, but this is one. The problem is that there is no real solution. Sanctions don't work because of the NoKo governments indifference to the welfare of it's citizens. Military action won't be easy because China, Russia and SoKo will have a huge refugee problem on their hands. So what's the solution? Quick regime overthrow with a quick installation of a UN governing agency?

As difficult as the first year in the Bush administration was, I think Obama has been hit with more in the first three months than any president in recent memory. This will be a huge test for his foreign policy team.

I believe that no matter what we do threats are going to gather there and elsewhere. This because no one is going to aid us and we can't do it alone. The only countries that really have the capability of doing anything there militarily are China and Russia and they won't. Had we received help in the middle east we would have the capability but we didn't so we don't.

Another September 11 type event is coming. It is only a matter of time before a nuke is used by someone somewhere. Unfortunately, in a world that doesn't any longer believe that there are actually threats in the world (they are just something warmongering conservatives in the US dream up) no one will try to shut the barn door until the horses have run out. This is one unfortunate byproduct of the mismanagement of Iraq.

Where will it be? DC? Los Angeles? Tel Aviv? So far, nuclear capability has not yet intersected with the desire or recklessness to use one, but it will and very soon I'm afraid. But yeah, lets go talk to the little dictator again so that we can declare victory once more and he can ignore everything he promises. These are not times for a naive public or leadership, but I fear that is just where we are. Only sad experience will change it.

[YOhio]

I believe that no matter what we do threats are going to gather there and elsewhere. This because no one is going to aid us and we can't do it alone. The only countries that really have the capability of doing anything there militarily are China and Russia and they won't. Had we received help in the middle east we would have the capability but we didn't so we don't.

I hope you're wrong about another Sept. 11 and I'm sure you are as well. The one wild card in the North Korea issue is China. For a few reasons. First, despite a shared basis in ideology and implementation, China and NoKo have never considered themselves allies. Most of it stems from the lack of respect China has for NoKo and it's governing family. I can't recall where I read this, but there is a story of China sending in aid to North Korea after the war and Mao being personally offended because Kim Il-Sung didn't return the boxcars. China views NoKo as an inferior nation, almost as an embarrassment to the region.

Second, China would be significantly enhanced by reaching a diplomatic solution to the situation. They're constantly getting nailed for Human Rights abuses and their control of Tibet and presence in Africa. A China-led peaceful resolution of the North Korean problem would carry quite a bit of cache as they expand their global influence.

Finally, in the absence of a diplomatic solution, China could view this as an opportunity to flex it's muscles militarily. North Korea could easily be toppled by the Chinese military and it could send a very strong message to the rest of the world. The justification would be as reasonable as our actions in Iraq and China could claim direct threat. I certainly hope it doesn't come to this, but IMO Kim Jong-Il is a bigger threat to U.S. and global interests than Saddam Hussein was.

[TripletDaddy]

Assuming you Bushites are correct, what is the purpose of his firing a testing missle over Japan?

It seems like that is the equivalent of hijacking a plane and then in mid-air saying, "ok, everyone this was a drill, but if we really wanted to cause damage, we would have taken this plane into a building."

And is this the first time Kim Jong Il was done something crazy or threatened something crazy, only later to be given money, aid, or some other sort of concession? North Korea's revenue streams are fairly limited. This is kinda what KJI does, no?

[YOhio]

Assuming us Bushies are right about what? I don't get it.

But you do raise a good point about motivation. It seems unlikely that NoKo is doing this only as leverage to get additional foreign aid or for UN concessions, but then nothing should surprise with Kim. A few things we do know. NoKo has recently tested an ICBM, they have actively sought to develop nuclear weapons and have recently blocked IAEA inspectors. I'm not sure if this is just a clever ploy to get some food drops or what, but it seems like a pretty difficult route to get there.

[TripletDaddy]

Assuming us Bushies are right about what? I don't get it.

But you do raise a good point about motivation. It seems unlikely that NoKo is doing this only as leverage to get additional foreign aid or for UN concessions, but then nothing should surprise with Kim. A few things we do know. NoKo has recently tested an ICBM, they have actively sought to develop nuclear weapons and have recently blocked IAEA inspectors. I'm not sure if this is just a clever ploy to get some food drops or what, but it seems like a pretty difficult route to get there.

Right about the veiled paranoia...the whole "a warning is not enough, we need to take action. let's invade..." because that is basically what you two seemed to be implying. Words are not enough, so some sort of action if required.

So assuming you are correct, that KJI is not kidding, that he intends to nuke another country or at least bomb another country, then why in the world would he be walking everyone through his progress? Seems like a weird way to launch a war. And what does North Korea do once it launches its missile? Send over all its rad troops to occupy the US? Or does it bask in the newfound glory for all of about 19 minutes until we totally annhilate North Korea with our weapons?

[YOhio]

Right about the veiled paranoia...the whole "a warning is not enough, we need to take action. let's invade..." because that is basically what you two seemed to be implying. Words are not enough, so some sort of action if required.

So assuming you are correct, that KJI is not kidding, that he intends to nuke another country or at least bomb another country, then why in the world would he be walking everyone through his progress? Seems like a weird way to launch a war. And what does North Korea do once it launches its missile? Send over all its rad troops to occupy the US? Or does it bask in the newfound glory for all of about 19 minutes until we totally annhilate North Korea with our weapons?

If I were him, I'd reserve all my rad troops for Europe or some more exotic place. But he's a madman and will probably waste his entire rad brigade on boring old America.

But to your criticism, no, I don't think words will be sufficient to halt NoKo nuclear and missile development. They could, but I don't think they will. They certainly haven't so far. So what will he do with nukes once he gets them? Who knows? But he carries a pretty big stick once he gets them and could quickly destroy some of the worlds most important economic centers in Japan, South Korea and China. I'm not advocating invasion, in fact I've already clearly stated that I don't know what the solution is.

[UtahDan]

Right about the veiled paranoia...the whole "a warning is not enough, we need to take action. let's invade..." because that is basically what you two seemed to be implying. Words are not enough, so some sort of action if required.

So assuming you are correct, that KJI is not kidding, that he intends to nuke another country or at least bomb another country, then why in the world would he be walking everyone through his progress? Seems like a weird way to launch a war. And what does North Korea do once it launches its missile? Send over all its rad troops to occupy the US? Or does it bask in the newfound glory for all of about 19 minutes until we totally annhilate North Korea with our weapons?

Who said anything about invading? What do you think KJI's motivation is? Obviously he uses this to leverage the world every time he rattles his saber. So when the time comes that we stop talking to him or ignore the saber rattling, what does he do then? The assumption on the other side is that he would never do it.

Maybe he wouldn't, but if he does it will be your town DDD, not mine. My point is that the response must be more than talk. We never thought terrorists could pull off a big attack and we were wrong. I think we currently believe that no one will use a nuke and I suspect we are wrong. I hope I am wrong.

Anyway, the point with KJI is that it is not clear whether you can ask what he motivation is because it is not clear whether he is rational. Maybe, maybe not. Same goes for the mullahs. They say, all the time, that they want to annihilate us. Maybe it is talk and maybe it isn't. I don't think we can stop all of it which was my point. The motivation to be serious about these things won't appear until the risk event occurs.

[TripletDaddy]

How many countries have actually detonated a nuclear or atomic bomb in an act of aggression?

Pretty ironic that we are basically the only ones.

And yet we are all worried that others will get them and use them.

[YOhio]

How many countries have actually detonated a nuclear or atomic bomb in an act of aggression?

Pretty ironic that we are basically the only ones.

And yet we are all worried that others will get them and use them.

So we shouldn't be worried?

[TripletDaddy]

Who said anything about invading? What do you think KJI's motivation is? Obviously he uses this to leverage the world every time he rattles his saber. So when the time comes that we stop talking to him or ignore the saber rattling, what does he do then? The assumption on the other side is that he would never do it.

Maybe he wouldn't, but if he does it will be your town DDD, not mine. My point is that the response must be more than talk. We never thought terrorists could pull off a big attack and we were wrong. I think we currently believe that no one will use a nuke and I suspect we are wrong. I hope I am wrong.

Anyway, the point with KJI is that it is not clear whether you can ask what he motivation is because it is not clear whether he is rational. Maybe, maybe not. Same goes for the mullahs. They say, all the time, that they want to annihilate us. Maybe it is talk and maybe it isn't. I don't think we can stop all of it which was my point. The motivation to be serious about these things won't appear until the risk event occurs.

Your use of 9/11 is ironic in that it seems to support my point, not yours.

Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11, not Iraq. And Al Qaeda operated in secret, lying in wait, planting sleeper cells several years in advance in different parts of the world.

They weren't out hiacking airplanes as dry runs for Sep 11.

I think you are trying to connect the events of Sep 11 with the failed UN sanctions against Saddam Hussein, which have since been proven to not really have much connection at all.

Back to your regularly scheduled paranoia.

[TripletDaddy]

So we shouldn't be worried?

Not really. And neither is any government regime in the world, apparently, otherwise someone would have invaded North Korea by now.

Were you worried when KJI launched a missile that went about 3 blocks before it went into the sea? This was a guy that has been threatening this kind of crap for years. yet when BUsh talks about the pressing need to invade Iraq (who is making zero direct threats to the US), everyone jumps on board with that. Remember that claymation movie that made fun of KJI years ago? They mocked him then because he was doing the same thing a decade ago....threats to destroy the world, which are really requests for cash.

Have you been worried that Israel has nukes but wont acknowledge it?

Are you worried that China has them? Pakistan? Russia?

The great irony is that the US is the biggest threat to use nukes. At least based on track record, anyway. We have used them, killing thousands of innocent people and leaving generations of cancer and birth defects.

This may be a good time to steer the discussion towards building a wall between the US and Mexico. That is also another pressing danger.

And then go and buy guns to protect our homes.

[YOhio]

Not really. And neither is any government regime in the world, apparently, otherwise someone would have invaded North Korea by now.

Were you worried when KJI launched a missile that went about 3 blocks before it went into the sea? This was a guy that has been threatening this kind of crap for years. yet when BUsh talks about the pressing need to invade Iraq (who is making zero direct threats to the US), everyone jumps on board with that. Remember that claymation movie that made fun of KJI years ago? They mocked him then because he was doing the same thing a decade ago....threats to destroy the world, which are really requests for cash.

Have you been worried that Israel has nukes but wont acknowledge it?

Are you worried that China has them? Pakistan? Russia?

The great irony is that the US is the biggest threat to use nukes. At least based on track record, anyway. We have used them, killing thousands of innocent people and leaving generations of cancer and birth defects.

This may be a good time to steer the discussion towards building a wall between the US and Mexico. That is also another pressing danger.

And then go and buy guns to protect our homes.

Claymation? It was puppets. Pop culture expert my ass.

The great irony is you making a point about U.S. nukes and acting like it's a good one. Then repeating it.

I do admit greater worry about NoKo developing nukes for the reasons already mentioned. Am I being paranoid? Perhaps. But if my speaking up on CougarUteForum can help ensure that NoKo doesn't developing a nuke, then I will not stay silent.

[TripletDaddy]

Claymation? It was puppets. Pop culture expert my ass.

The great irony is you making a point about U.S. nukes and acting like it's a good one. Then repeating it.

I do admit greater worry about NoKo developing nukes for the reasons already mentioned. Am I being paranoid? Perhaps. But if my speaking up on CougarUteForum can help ensure that NoKo doesn't developing a nuke, then I will not stay silent.

My acting like my points are good ones is anything but ironic. You should all expect nothing less by now.

By the way, rank the following countries in order of how many innocent people they have killed with nuclear bombs, most to least...

1. USA
2. Rest of world combined