Adam and Steve can now get married in NY...

[TripletDaddy]

Intentionally, I haven't expressed my opinion on gay marriage. So you don't know what I believe. Nor could you deduce my belief about your laundry list of "ignorances" even if I had. You can disagree about gay marriage without thinking all the rest in your list.

If I did disagree with gay marriage, I'd find attitudes like yours much scarier than actual same-sex marriages. The mockery, simplistic thinking, and arrogance is much more of a menace than gay marriage, in my opinion.

All my posts have done is draw that out from you and others.

I know much more about you than you might think.

[taekwondave]

I really don't think the government should be involved in marriage, but if they ARE going to be involved in it, they need to be fair, and fair does not mean catering to the majority unless the majority is right. And in this case I do not believe the majority is right, as evidenced by my little analogy.

Those against gay marriage come from one or all of the following three positions:

1. They are afraid what God will think and do if they allow it
2. They believe it will degrade the value of their own marriages somehow
3. They dislike change generally, unless it proves to be of some great value to them personally.

Let's apply this to the ice cream analogy.

Mom and dad: "Well, Johnny, can you give us some valid reasons for continuing to give you ice cream without giving Timmy any?"

1. "Yes. I heard of this other family who was very similar to ours. Someone like Timmy wanted ice cream and the parents caved in and gave it to him. A week later they were in a car accident and the whole family died."

"But Johnny, what does that have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that it was giving that child ice cream that caused them to crash and die?"

"I'm not saying that it DID, but if Timmy wants ice cream, he's going to have to prove that it DIDN'T to my satisfaction, otherwise I won't vote for him to have it."

"Okay. Any OTHER reasons?"

2. "Yes. I LIKE that only SOME of us get ice cream and others don't. It makes me feel like I'm part of something special. If Timmy could have the ice cream too, then it wouldn't feel as special. If Timmy wants ice cream, then he's going to have to find a way to make me still feel like I'm a part of something special. Perhaps if you gave him frozen yogurt instead, I wouldn't be so upset."

"Um. Okay. Anything else?"

3. "Yes. Mom? Dad? Aren't we a pretty happy family already?"

"Yeah. I'd say that."

"And for all these years that we've been happy, Timmy has never gotten ice cream."

"True."

"Well, giving him ice cream is a massive change and introduces an entirely new variable into the mix. I'm not saying it WOULD, but it COULD change everything and ruin the delicate balance that we've enjoyed for so long. If I'm going to support your decision to give Timmy ice cream, Timmy needs to PROVE to me that such a delicate balance will not be upset. Because I like things how they are and unless things are going to get significantly better for me personally, I see no reason to change anything."

"Hm. Anything else?" (and unfortunately this has been the clincher recently)

"Yes. Just keep in mind that me and the other kids WILL vote you out if you give Timmy ice cream without first convincing us to our satisfaction that it is right and in our interest for you to do so. We won't hesitate to get us some new parents."

"Duly noted, Johnny."

I don't think anti gay marriage folks want to think of themselves as little Johnny, but when they come around and use non-reasons as reasons and dig in their heels and say they're entitled to their opinion whether they can make it make sense or not...I think it's an adequate parallel.

[Jacob]

OK. interracial couples wanted to get married because:

1.They desired the rights granted to marriages by the state and federal governments

2.They wanted to be married to the person that they loved, and have their marriage recognized by society as such.

3.They wanted to erode racism and bigotry in society.

Gay people have these same desires. Civil unions take care of number 1, but gay people want 2 and 3 (well not racism but certainly bigotry) as much as interracial couples in the past. I guess for you, number 2 and 3 are not good enough reasons to support gay marriage. However, I assume that if civil unions were available to interracial couples you would have been in favor of granting interracial marriages. So your hang up over gay marriage is more about gays being accepted than not wanting to change marriage.

You've lost me. You analogy in inapt. The constitution pretty clearly prohibits laws that discriminates based on race and I too find such laws odious. Also, I never said I supported civil unions. Contrarily, I support the Utah constitution, which prohibits them.

I know much more about you than you might think.

I don't know about that. But he sure seems to have you nailed down.

[Jacob]

I really don't think the government should be involved in marriage, but if they ARE going to be involved in it, they need to be fair, and fair does not mean catering to the majority unless the majority is right. And in this case I do not believe the majority is right, as evidenced by my little analogy.

Those against gay marriage come from one or all of the following three positions:

1. They are afraid what God will think and do if they allow it
2. They believe it will degrade the value of their own marriages somehow
3. They dislike change generally, unless it proves to be of some great value to them personally.

Let's apply this to the ice cream analogy.

Mom and dad: "Well, Johnny, can you give us some valid reasons for continuing to give you ice cream without giving Timmy any?"

"Yes. You make delicious dinners already. Timmy should be plenty grateful with that."

"But Johnny, you get the same delicious dinners, but you ALSO get the ice cream, should you also be grateful with just that? Should we no longer give YOU ice cream either?"

"That's different."

"How?"

"That's not my job to show you how. I'm in the majority. Timmy must show you that it's NOT different."

"Okay. Any other reasons?"

"Yes. I heard of this other family who was very similar to ours. Someone like Timmy wanted ice cream and the parents caved in and gave it to him. A week later they were in a car accident and the whole family died."

"But Johnny, what does that have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that it was giving that child ice cream that caused them to crash and die?"

"I'm not saying that it DID, but if Timmy wants ice cream, he's going to have to prove that it DIDN'T to my satisfaction, otherwise I won't vote for him to have it."

"Okay. Any OTHER reasons?"

"Yes. Mom? Dad? Aren't we a pretty happy family already?"

"Yeah. I'd say that."

"And for all these years that we've been happy, Timmy has never gotten ice cream."

"True."

"Well, giving him ice cream is a massive change and introduces an entirely new variable into the mix. I'm not saying it WOULD, but it COULD change everything and ruin the delicate balance that we've enjoyed for so long. If I'm going to support your decision to give Timmy ice cream, Timmy needs to PROVE to me that such a delicate balance will not be upset. Because I like things how they are and unless things are going to get significantly better for me personally, I see no reason to change anything."

"Hm. Anything else?"

"Yes. Just keep in mind that me and the other kids WILL vote you out if you give Timmy ice cream without first convincing us to our satisfaction that it is right and in our interest for you to do so. We won't hesitate to get us some new parents."

"Duly noted, Johnny."

I don't think anti gay marriage folks want to think of themselves as little Johnny, but when they come around and use non-reasons as reasons and dig in their heels and say they're entitled to their opinion whether they can make it make sense or not...I think it's an adequate parallel.

the ice cream analogy was bad from the start. This one made it worse.
Also, I think your 3 reasons people oppose gay marriage are inaccurate and incomplete. I don't oppose it for any of those reasons.

[TripletDaddy]

I don't know about that. But he sure seems to have you nailed down.

If you don't know then you are unqualified to opine.

[Jacob]

If you don't know then you are unqualified to opine.

That's why I didn't. Are you dense?

[Flystripper]

You've lost me. You analogy in inapt. The constitution pretty clearly prohibits laws that discriminates based on race and I too find such laws odious. Also, I never said I supported civil unions. Contrarily, I support the Utah constitution, which prohibits them.

It seems as if you don't believe that there should be laws which prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation. Is that what you are saying?

[taekwondave]

the ice cream analogy was bad from the start. This one made it worse.
Also, I think your 3 reasons people oppose gay marriage are inaccurate and incomplete. I don't oppose it for any of those reasons.

I altered it for your benefit if you care to read it again. But again, I am no detective, and I know of no other reason being touted. Don't tell me you don't espouse any of those three reasons and them leave me hanging what your reason actually is. What is it? I thought I pretty clearly read you say that you didn't like change unless the people proposing it could clearly explain why. Oh were you just throwing that out there for fun but it didn't actually reflect your position?

[taekwondave]

Jacob, why do you oppose gay marriage??? Why???

If it isn't because you think it violate God's will and you don't think it will cheapen your own marriage somehow or do you any other significant harm and if it's not because you just dislike changing anything without some really good reason that appeals to you personally, then what???

[Jacob]

Jacob, why do you oppose gay marriage??? Why???

If it isn't because you think it violate God's will and you don't think it will cheapen your own marriage somehow or do you any other significant harm and if it's not because you just dislike changing anything without some really good reason that appeals to you personally, then what???

I just addressed this today, in this thread.

[TripletDaddy]

That's why I didn't. Are you dense?

Depends. Are you speaking literally right now? If so, then isn't everyone dense?

[Jacob]

It seems as if you don't believe that there should be laws which prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation. Is that what you are saying?

That is not what I'm saying, because that is not the topic at hand.

[taekwondave]

I just addressed this today, in this thread.

Yes, I thought you did, and it was YOU I was referring to on my second and third posts. I thought you made it clear it was because you thought it cheapened the value of your own marriage and that that you weren't down for change without some really good reason for it. Apparently I was wrong so if you don't mind....?

[Jacob]

Depends. Are you speaking literally right now? If so, then isn't everyone dense?

You are literally the most annoying person in the universe.

[taekwondave]

That is not what I'm saying, because that is not the topic at hand.

Ugh. Man, Jacob, you're killing me bro. If that is not what you are saying then SAY what you are saying. Because clearly we have misunderstood you up until now. Try putting it in terms we can understand and stop assuming you've done a good job of communicating it already. If we didn't get it then you didn't communicate it clearly enough; unless you think we're stupid, in which case, this conversation was pointless from the beginning.