My 9/11 concerns

[taekwondave]

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[taekwondave]

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[wuapinmon]

Okay, while we're taking things out of context. I don't think Mexicans are stupid. I was letting you in on my thoughts at the time I was on my mission. I think I've made it abundantly clear that I don't believe....well, ANYTHING I did when I was on my mission.

So you don't believe in masturbation?

[taekwondave]

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[taekwondave]

So you don't believe in masturbation?

That's like the Easter Bunny, right?

[BoylenOver]

Did planes hitting the twin towers REALLY cause them and building seven to fall that day

Yes.

Expanded answer: Occam's Razor.

[Sizzle]

I heard about their arguments but I absolutely REFUSED to hear them. Why would I listen to such tripe? Besides, I knew in the back of my skull that if there was ANY truth to it, or if anybody out there ever came to even BELIEVE anything anywhere close to that....the worst thing on God's green earth would surely come to pass: the democrats would win the next election.

So needless, I think, to say, I was emotionally invested in the government's official story of 9/11 as much as ANYBODY.

So because the Democrats won the elecetion in 2008, Bush made the towers fall in 2001?

[RobinFinderson]

I was a grad student studying architecture when the planes hit. We studied the forces that would have been at play in my structures course. Here is why the buildings fell -- steel isn't very strong when it is hot. It actually has a relatively LOW burning point, and worse than that, it has all of the structural integrity of a limp noodle when it gets very hot. For this reason, structural steel, by code, is required to be coated with a fluffy fire retardant. The stuff looks like gray flocking on an x-mas tree, and it will actually peel off if you pick at it with your fingers.

So here is what happened. The building was hit, the force of impact penetrated to the core of the building and scraped and exploded the fire retardant off of the steel. The intense fuel-fire then quickly heated the steel to the point that it lost its structural integrity.

Next, the buildings collapsed because of a domino effect. The steel in skyscrapers is sized to resist wind loads and live loads and all of the weight of stuff in the building, plus a generous safety factor. It is NOT sized to resist the weight of a quarter of the building crunching down from above. The whole thing came down like a house of cards under its own weight.

[BoylenOver]

I was a grad student studying architecture when the planes hit. We studied the forces that would have been at play in my structures course. Here is why the buildings fell -- steel isn't very strong when it is hot. It actually has a relatively LOW burning point, and worse than that, it has all of the structural integrity of a limp noodle when it gets very hot. For this reason, structural steel, by code, is required to be coated with a fluffy fire retardant. The stuff looks like gray flocking on an x-mas tree, and it will actually peel off if you pick at it with your fingers.

So here is what happened. The building was hit, the force of impact penetrated to the core of the building and scraped and exploded the fire retardant off of the steel. The intense fuel-fire then quickly heated the steel to the point that it lost its structural integrity.

Next, the buildings collapsed because of a domino effect. The steel in skyscrapers is sized to resist wind loads and live loads and all of the weight of stuff in the building, plus a generous safety factor. It is NOT sized to resist the weight of a quarter of the building crunching down from above. The whole thing came down like a house of cards under its own weight.

Yep. The combination of the force created by the planes striking the towers; the heat of the flames degrading the steel; the fuel from the planes feeding the fire; and the domino effect you stated are the facts of the collapse. The thousands of experts in matters regarding all aspects of the tragedy have a consensus.

[Coach McGuirk]

Thank you jeebus for allowing me to start my day with reading this thread.

[Clark Addison]

Okay and real quickly, before I go read that popular mechanics article (I have some reservations about popular mechanics already, I have to admit, but I'll set those aside for the time being and at least read what they say and see if it makes sense to me. I'll tell you later my reservations about them if you want.)

But I think a little background on me is in order,

. . .

So lay off. I'm asking an honest question here.

TKD,

From reading this, it appears to me that you haven't studied the science of 9/11 in depth (no shame in that, few people have), and that your reason for disbelieving that the planes caused the towers to fall is because it was one of a series of things that you stopped believing in. It was a domino loss of faith in Bush, our government, the Iraq War, and then 9/11. I think you are putting a relationship out there that doesn't exist. You can believe that Bush was the greatest president ever, or you can believe that Bush was the devil incarnate, and it doesn't really have anything to do with 9/11. I never agreed with the Iraq War, but I have no real doubt about the basics of 9/11. When Bush was president, most liberals hated him, but only the loonies thought that the twin towers came down because of explosive charges.

I think you just need to separate politics from science, and study the science.

[Eddie]

... I didn't think it was necessary to lay them all out for your consideration at this time. If you want me to do that, I'd be happy to...

I think folks here are curious as to what you think happened and what you don't believe. I've seen a great many theories out there - some really crazy and some just a little off center. If we don't know which stories you believe and which you don't believe, it is difficult to offer any evidence one way or the other.

For instance - some folks believe that there were explosives in the towers. Some believe that there weren't - but that the plan was actually carried out by Israel (who wanted help against terrorists). Others believe Bush was the instigator - looking for a reason to go into Iraq. There are hundreds of theories out there.

Personally - with OBL & Al Qaeda taking credit for the job and folks who are known associates and terrorists having participated, I find it difficult to pursue theories that it was Bush or Mossad.

I've read the Popular Mechanics article. But I see no harm in reading it again to see if I missed something. But as I stated before, I have reasons to doubt the sincerity of that publication. If you could assuage me of those concerns as well, I'd be much obliged.

I get your concerns about motivation. But are you saying that Popular Mechanics fudged the research/science part? Are you saying that they are lying about the properties of steel, the temperature at which jet fuel burns, etc.?

TKD,

From reading this, it appears to me that you haven't studied the science of 9/11 in depth (no shame in that, few people have), and that your reason for disbelieving that the planes caused the towers to fall is because it was one of a series of things that you stopped believing in. It was a domino loss of faith in Bush, our government, the Iraq War, and then 9/11. I think you are putting a relationship out there that doesn't exist. You can believe that Bush was the greatest president ever, or you can believe that Bush was the devil incarnate, and it doesn't really have anything to do with 9/11. I never agreed with the Iraq War, but I have no real doubt about the basics of 9/11. When Bush was president, most liberals hated him, but only the loonies thought that the twin towers came down because of explosive charges.

I think you just need to separate politics from science, and study the science.

I agree with this. Just because you have lost faith in politics and politicians, doesn't mean that terrorists don't exist and bad non-politicians quit doing bad things and only politicians remain to do them.

[taekwondave]

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[LiveCoug]

You guys will have to forgive me. I know I must just be unaware of something the rest of you already know about but I just haven't been able to completely rule out the possibility that something other than those two planes brought down those three skyscrapers on 9/11. What information am I missing? If you guys are so sure then maybe I'm just missing some facts. Some of you on another thread said you'd participate in this kind of discussion if I started the thread so by all means. It would be appreciated.

I'd like to know that everything our country has done over the last ten years was at least instigated by something based on the truth. I STILL wouldn't agree with most of it, but at least I'd have THAT to hold on to. I'd like to know that over one million Iraqis haven't been killed because we were duped into attacking them based on a lie. I'd like to know that there was at least SOME integrity left in Washington, whether democratic or republican. Because right now there is just too much that is pointing me the other way. If you've got some hope for me, I want to hear it.

Did planes hitting the twin towers REALLY cause them and building seven to fall that day, or was it blasting charges like so many others have suggested, and since one fact followed another, we were just easily led to mistake causation for correlation? I've seen evidence for that side and it looks pretty strong to me. But as I've said before I'm in better company than I'm used to on this site and if you guys are so sure, I'm sure that I can be convinced as well. I am your humble student.

Yes. No.

Dave, it seems you have been caught in a web of conspiracy belief that has spiraled a little out of control. Let me guess, Michael Moore's documentaries have a profound impact on what you feel about the world?

[creekster]

One last thing before I go to bed, guys.

I HATE my world view. It depresses the HELL out of me. I would LOVE to go back to the days when I thought the only battle that needed fighting in America was between the democrats and republicans. That the only thing I needed to do to change the world was get Mitt Romney, and not Ron Paul elected. I was good at that world view. I had control in that world view. I felt like an expert with that world view.

I watched corporate news all day at home, listened to conservative radio every time I was in the car, and just loved to twist everything some liberal said into a pretzel to somehow prove they were incompetent and that my "guy" or my "party" should win. That was FUN. It was the world that everyone around me understood. When I opened my mouth and talked about political issues, people knew what the hell I was talking about. I liked when I thought Ron Paul was a skeezy little troll-man who was completely out of touch with what America was really dealing with and was better off back in the hole where he came from, instead of maybe the LAST guy on earth who actually knows what it means to be a real conservative, and yet even feeling forced to doubt HIM because who knows with these multi-trillion dollar interests that float around the world, gobbling up entire governments everywhere they go.

I never thought I'd actually LIKE the guy. Ugh. I laughed my ass off when Fox News kept cutting him off in favor of Romney, Guliani, and that guy who can't lift his arms above his head (I said that all the time when Romney was running against McCain, haha. I thought I was so clever.)

Now I think the whole damn world is owned by international bankers who hide behind their damn puppet politicians and their damn make-believe governments. I think they own every major media outlet and play our whole country like keys on a piano and use our military as their own little bulldozer to squash any country that doesn't agree to their terms, gaining our support by getting their four media "witnesses" who supposedly hate each other and disagree on every political front to magically agree on something. (Lybia anyone?)

You think I LIKE that world view? Good GOD, save me if you can. What kind of LIFE is that? Who wants to believe that even if it were true? Who wants to feel so insignificant? I sure as hell don't. I got an ego, dammit. So if you can drag me back to where I came from, don't think I'll resent you for it, no. If someone can actually get me to believe that the world works the way Fox News says it does again, I will love you forever.

Now good night.

This isn't a world view based on fact, it is a world view based on musings and speculation. Let's try it this way. I think the towers fell because I saw two big freaking planes fly into them, watched them burn and then saw them collapse. What evidence do you and your world view have that I am wrong? Let's start with that. Having done so, I am rather confident your evidence will not survive scrutiny. But I am very interested in hearing the evidentiary basis for your position.