European guilt

[grapevine]

How many people complain about us taking Indian lands and they were peaceful and did not try to conquer whole continent. I heard that before. Thing is I do not think we tried to exterminate them. Some got sick because of lack of vaccines. But there is more assimilation than extinction. They were fighting each other for centuries before we got here. We just were more succesful than them..

What were we supposed to do go back. Europeans were inspired to come here. Some for Gold others religious freedom. Indians are living pretty good now compared to before. Interesting how some people make us feel guilty for what our anscestors did. Why don't they go back to Europe if that is the case?

[Borderline Divine]

How many people complain about us taking Indian lands and they were peaceful and did not try to conquer whole continent. I heard that before. Thing is I do not think we tried to exterminate them. Some got sick because of lack of vaccines. But there is more assimilation than extinction. They were fighting each other for centuries before we got here. We just were more succesful than them..

What were we supposed to do go back. Europeans were inspired to come here. Some for Gold others religious freedom. Indians are living pretty good now compared to before. Interesting how some people make us feel guilty for what our anscestors did. Why don't they go back to Europe if that is the case?

Grape, most of your posts amuse me, but I gotta tell you sometimes you scare the hell out of me.

[Green Monstah]

How many people complain about us taking Indian lands and they were peaceful and did not try to conquer whole continent. I heard that before. Thing is I do not think we tried to exterminate them. Some got sick because of lack of vaccines. But there is more assimilation than extinction. They were fighting each other for centuries before we got here. We just were more succesful than them..

What were we supposed to do go back. Europeans were inspired to come here. Some for Gold others religious freedom. Indians are living pretty good now compared to before. Interesting how some people make us feel guilty for what our anscestors did. Why don't they go back to Europe if that is the case?

You're correct that we didn't kill them off completely. Didn't we eviscerate (via disease or war) something like 80% of the Native population in a matter of 3 or 4 centuries? That's not insubstantial.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Grape, most of your posts amuse me, but I gotta tell you sometimes you scare the hell out of me.

I am looking forward to reading grape's analysis of slavery.

[Indy Coug]

I am looking forward to reading grape's analysis of slavery.

Slavery allowed their descendants to die of AIDS at a much lower rate than their African counterparts.

[Jeff Lebowski]

You're correct that we didn't kill them off completely. Didn't we eviscerate (via disease or war) something like 80% of the Native population in a matter of 3 or 4 centuries? That's not insubstantial.

I have read estimates that by the time the Pilgrims arrived 90% of the natives were dead from imported diseases (mainly smallpox). From 60M down to 6M. I suspect those numbers are on the high side, but the deaths from disease occurred over a shockingly short time span. One of the main reasons that the Pilgrims survived the first winter is because they raided to the food stores from Indian villages that had been entirely wiped out just prior to their arrival.

[Indy Coug]

I have read estimates that by the time the Pilgrims arrived 90% of the natives were dead from imported diseases (mainly smallpox). From 60M down to 6M. I suspect those numbers are on the high side, but the deaths from disease occurred over a shockingly short time span. One of the main reasons that the Pilgrims survived the first winter is because they raided to the food stores from Indian villages that had been entirely wiped out just prior to their arrival.

Here's a decent book to read more about this:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/140004006X"]Amazon.com: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (9781400040063): Charles C. Mann: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FJ3ZA3Q7L.@@AMEPARAM@@51FJ3ZA3Q7L[/ame]

[Jeff Lebowski]

Here's a decent book to read more about this:

Amazon.com: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (9781400040063): Charles C. Mann: Books

It's on my shelf! I just need to get to it. I hear it is very good.

[Borderline Divine]

I am looking forward to reading grape's analysis of slavery.

[Indy Coug]

It's on my shelf! I just need to get to it. I hear it is very good.

Yes, it's not very long and is definitely worth your while.

[Borderline Divine]

A book I'm just now about 100 pages into is "The killing of Crazy Horse."

Can't remember the author, but I am really enjoying it. I'm ashamed to say I knew very little about this period and the fact that it took place mainly in Northeastern Wyoming is also very interesting to me.

Jarod Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel" is also excellent.

[Jeff Lebowski]

A book I'm just now about 100 pages into is "The killing of Crazy Horse."

Can't remember the author, but I am really enjoying it. I'm ashamed to say I knew very little about this period and the fact that it took place mainly in Northeastern Wyoming is also very interesting to me.

Jarod Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel" is also excellent.

Yeah, Diamond's book should be required reading. I will check out the Crazy Horse book.

On that same topic, I highly recommend the following two books:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Mayflower-Story-Courage-Community-War/dp/0143111973/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296756756&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Mayflower: A Story of Courage, Community, and War (9780143111979): Nathaniel Philbrick: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51z1q9RAfdL.@@AMEPARAM@@51z1q9RAfdL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Thunder-Carson-Conquest-American/dp/1400031109/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296756875&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Blood and Thunder: The Epic Story of Kit Carson and the Conquest of the American West (9781400031108): Hampton Sides: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51w1721jxfL.@@AMEPARAM@@51w1721jxfL[/ame]

[Borderline Divine]

Thanks for the reccomendations

Yeah, Diamond's book should be required reading. I will check out the Crazy Horse book.

On that same topic, I highly recommend the following two books:

Amazon.com: Mayflower: A Story of Courage, Community, and War (9780143111979): Nathaniel Philbrick: Books

Amazon.com: Blood and Thunder: The Epic Story of Kit Carson and the Conquest of the American West (9781400031108): Hampton Sides: Books

Diamond's "Collapse" is also good.

[Uncle Ted]

Indians are living pretty good now compared to before.

Yes, thanks to native american gaming regulatory act the indian gaming industry is now a $20B/yr business. Before that it was only in the millions.