Apples to Apples : Utah's schools stink...

[Color Me Badd Fan]

This is no surprise, of course. The spending per student is pathetic and the classrooms are overflowing. Even at the nice schools (Alpine school district, for example) the kids might be lucky to have a couple of computers in their individual classes (they have to split time at a computer lab with the rest of the school).

Did anyone find the full report on the website? I clicked on the link but couldn't find that particular one.

I heard they're still playing Oregon Trail on Apple IIes in Utah classrooms.

[Jacob]

This is one of the reasons I think we should cut back on big-family welfare (child tax credit) in Utah. There should be a bigger cost for having 12 kids.

That's fine...as long as that family gets an offsetting FICA tax credit to pay for all the SS and medicare benefits of the folks who didn't have many kids.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

My property taxes are through the roof, but I'm happy to pay them mostly because my kids school is great. It's technologically up to date. There are at least four computers in each classroom dedicated to the kids (each teacher has their own laptop for themselves). There's a Star Board in every classroom. The teachers have exceeded both my and Mrs. Jones (who was a licensed teacher but is not currently teaching) expectations. The kids are challegned. There are no more than 20 kids per class (all my kids are in elementary school).

My only complaint is that the kids only get one 15 minute recess per day and sometimes they don't even get out for recess.

As a fiscally conservative person, property taxes are fine as long as I'm getting a return on them adn I feel like I am. Maybe Utah should raise property taxes and at the exact same time hire more teachers to show that the extra money is actually going to help the kids instead of going to administration.

Old people incessantly bitch about property taxes. I've seen them complain in California and in Utah about them, about how they fund the schools and how they shouldn't have to pay for it.

[il Padrino Ute]

Utah is not going to put money into buildings. Have you been in an LDS wardhouse?

Utah is fine with 30+ kids in a class. It makes it just like Primary.

Teacher pay? Ha, ha. How much do Sunday School teachers get payed?

Oh yea, and then there are the hordes of parents who think that because they went on missions and/or serve in the Church, and have lots of kids, they know better than do the professional educators.

Utah schools are doomed.

[statman]

This is one of the reasons I think we should cut back on big-family welfare (child tax credit) in Utah. There should be a bigger cost for having 12 kids.

But those 12 kids will pay a lot of taxes in the future. Public education is a pretty decent investment in the long-term economic health & viability of a State/Country.

And with birth rates dropping throughout the country, we should be encouraging people to have MORE kids, not less. We need to avoid the demographic catastrophy that is about to hit Europe and Japan (and China, btw) like a freight train. And it is an absolute catastrophe. It will bring their societies to their knees.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That's fine...as long as that family gets an offsetting FICA tax credit to pay for all the SS and medicare benefits of the folks who didn't have many kids.

Swap out one tax credit for another? It is thinking like this that has gotten us into this debt mess.

[Moliere]

Old people incessantly bitch about property taxes. I've seen them complain in California and in Utah about them, about how they fund the schools and how they shouldn't have to pay for it.

Oh the irony in old people complaining about their taxes going to fund public education. Like old people don't get any benefits *cough* social security *cough* from taxes paid by working parents.

[Jeff Lebowski]

But those 12 kids will pay a lot of taxes in the future. Public education is a pretty decent investment in the long-term economic health & viability of a State/Country.

And with birth rates dropping throughout the country, we should be encouraging people to have MORE kids, not less. We need to avoid the demographic catastrophy that is about to hit Europe and Japan (and China, btw) like a freight train. And it is an absolute catastrophe. It will bring their societies to their knees.

Yeah, I understand that. I just love how conservatives are all for redistribution of wealth and complicating the tax structure when it suits their purposes.

From what I understand, one of the primary reasons that the US has a positive population growth rate (2.3 births per couple) is illegal immigration. Take that away and we go down around break even territory.

[TripletDaddy]

3 kids gets you to 30%. I don't think many families spend near 30% of their gross income on the non-essentials you mention.

I still think $5,500 is a lot of money. You say it is a pittance, so what is enough? Twice that much? That's getting absurd, IMO.

That isn't an actual cost. in other words, each parent does not have to pay $5,500 in Utah for each child in the public school system. Conveniently for all the politically conservative folks in Utah, that cost is spread across all taxpayers, even the ones with no children in school. I agree that if you had to pay an actual tuition of $5,500 a year for each child, that could get costly. But then again, maybe people wouldn't have 7 kids.

The spending per student in some of the school districts in South County are exactly twice that much, fyi. Which is why the schools in those areas are so strong.

One thing I noticed about the school system in Utah....it doesn't even know how to capitalize on its resources. I'm not talking about schools in crappy parts of town....those will be problematic in any part of the country. Does the school district have a local fund-raising arm that operates as a full-time entity, soliciting donations from business, industry, etc? Does the district employ a fund manager to manage and create wealth derived from such private donations? The answer is basically no. Other districts do these things already and have experienced great success.

The spending per student is an embarrassment.

[Jacob]

Swap out one tax credit for another? It is thinking like this that has gotten us into this debt mess.

I guess you missed the point.

Your post demonstrated a lack of understanding of the tax and economic considerations related to child-rearing. My post was intended as sarcasm.

[wuapinmon]

Did anyone find the full report on the website? I clicked on the link but couldn't find that particular one.

The fine print said it would be available after Sept. 30.

Utah is not going to put money into buildings. Have you been in an LDS wardhouse?

Utah is fine with 30+ kids in a class. It makes it just like Primary.

Teacher pay? Ha, ha. How much do Sunday School teachers get payed?

Oh yea, and then there are the hordes of parents who think that because they went on missions and/or serve in the Church, and have lots of kids, they know better than do the professional educators.

Utah schools are doomed.

I wonder what place the impact of so many female teachers teaching for 2-5 years until they get pregnant has on the long-term quality of instruction. I imagine that administrators are always having to train 20-30% (a total guess) of their workforce each year.

One thing I noticed about the school system in Utah....it doesn't even know how to capitalize on its resources. I'm not talking about schools in crappy parts of town....those will be problematic in any part of the country. Does the school district have a local fund-raising arm that operates as a full-time entity, soliciting donations from business, industry, etc? Does the district employ a fund manager to manage and create wealth derived from such private donations? The answer is basically no. Other districts do these things already and have experienced great success.

I've often said that our district here should hire an out-of-work journalist who is used to writing long projects on a deadline to grant write all day. Pay them $35k + 5% of whatever they get.

[TripletDaddy]

The fine print said it would be available after Sept. 30.

Please re-read the fine print, counselor.

[TheAzzuri]

Does the school district have a local fund-raising arm that operates as a full-time entity, soliciting donations from business, industry, etc? Does the district employ a fund manager to manage and create wealth derived from such private donations? The answer is basically no. Other districts do these things already and have experienced great success.

I've often said that our district here should hire an out-of-work journalist who is used to writing long projects on a deadline to grant write all day. Pay them $35k + 5% of whatever they get.

We recently moved to the greater Birmingham (AL) area and the effects of this kind of thing are in full view. The so-called "over the mountain" schools (suburbs) have significantly more money than those within the city limits. If I understand correctly, the fund-raising happens almost exclusively through the PTA. Teachers, administrators, etc. then write grants to be approved by a small subset of PTA officials, though I am admittedly hazy on some of the details. It's a remarkably efficient system and I was shocked by the amount of money they raise. My wife has attended a couple of the meetings and I'm impressed with how efficiently the money is spent.


This is my first experience being a parent of a school age child, so I have no idea if this kind of thing is a common occurence. However, compared to the quality of schools in other places we've lived, it blows everything away and it isn't even close.

[wuapinmon]

Please re-read the fine print, counselor.

We're both wrong, but here it is:
http://utahfoundation.org/img/pdfs/rr697.pdf

[wuapinmon]

We recently moved to the greater Birmingham (AL) area and the effects of this kind of thing are in full view. The so-called "over the mountain" schools (suburbs) have significantly more money than those within the city limits. If I understand correctly, the fund-raising happens almost exclusively through the PTA. Teachers, administrators, etc. then write grants to be approved by a small subset of PTA officials, though I am admittedly hazy on some of the details. It's a remarkably efficient system and I was shocked by the amount of money they raise. My wife has attended a couple of the meetings and I'm impressed with how efficiently the money is spent.


This is my first experience being a parent of a school age child, so I have no idea if this kind of thing is a common occurence. However, compared to the quality of schools in other places we've lived, it blows everything away and it isn't even close.

I am the "Grants Coordinator" for my daughter's school's PTO. I got a nearly $3k last year, and I've got one pending right now for $5500. Here's hoping. I'm trying to get money this time to fund sending a test group of 20 students to three different educational camps to combat summer-learning--loss among the impoverished. The money last year was to build an outdoor stage, since it's an Arts Magnet school without a <redacted> stage!