Prop 8, the anti-mosque movement, anti-illegal fervor...

[RobinFinderson]

... what is this country becoming? As a liberal libertarian, there a quite a few right-wing ideas that I find genuinely appealing, but holy Moses, you good conservatives have got to get control of your nuts.

[Maximus]

... what is this country becoming? As a liberal libertarian, there a quite a few right-wing ideas that I find genuinely appealing, but holy Moses, you good conservatives have got to get control of your nuts.

I really don't see how someone can be in favor of illegal immigration. I am not saying you have to be in favor of deporting all illegals, but illegal immigration is...illegal. We need to know who comes here and who is here. Deport the criminals, and slowly let the others become citizens and enforce the border. is that nutty?

[All-American]

... what is this country becoming? As a liberal libertarian, there a quite a few right-wing ideas that I find genuinely appealing, but holy Moses, you good conservatives have got to get control of your nuts.

In the beginning, the electorate consisted of wealthy, white, landowning males. Then we got rid of slavery. Then we got rid of polygamy. Then we expanded the electorate to include women. Then we passed the Civil Rights Act.

Once, the battle was whether gays could have sex. Now the battle is over what to call a gay relationship. Once, the battle was whether those who didn't attend the state religion regularly could vote. Now, the battle is over how close a different religion should be able to build a mosque next to the site of a terrorist attack. Once, the battle was over whether members of other races should be allowed to fully participate in society. Now, the battle is over what to do about those who enter the country illegally.

So what is this country becoming? Better, that's what.

[DU Ute]

I really don't see how someone can be in favor of illegal immigration. I am not saying you have to be in favor of deporting all illegals, but illegal immigration is...illegal. We need to know who comes here and who is here. Deport the criminals, and slowly let the others become citizens and enforce the border. is that nutty?

But they're all criminals! Every one of them needs to be deported!



That's nutty.

[Katy Lied]

We were just talking about why the illegal immigration issue has found such purchase in 2009-2010. The problem has existed for years, and people have gone back and forth on whether it is acceptable or unacceptable. I think it is purely the economy. With a bad economy, people resent illegal workers for 2 reasons:

1. They take american jobs or opportunities.
2. They take american citizen's public benefits. (schools, health care, etc)

and to a lesser extent, reciprocity. If we can't get jobs/benefits/own property/etc there from their governments, why do we give them jobs/benefits/etc here?

If the economy was booming, this issue would disappear overnight.

[venkman]

... what is this country becoming? As a liberal libertarian, there a quite a few right-wing ideas that I find genuinely appealing, but holy Moses, you good conservatives have got to get control of your nuts.

I'm not really into controlling people's political opinions, so I'll leave that one alone. I'm more interested in which right-wing ideas you espouse.

[Moliere]

... what is this country becoming? As a liberal libertarian, there a quite a few right-wing ideas that I find genuinely appealing, but holy Moses, you good conservatives have got to get control of your nuts.

And all liberals want to Keep spending money they don't have.

Did my brush paint as broad as yours?

[mUUser]

sloppy scattershot hoping to hit a nerve?

weaksauce bro.

[RobinFinderson]

In the beginning, the electorate consisted of wealthy, white, landowning males. Then we got rid of slavery. Then we got rid of polygamy. Then we expanded the electorate to include women. Then we passed the Civil Rights Act.

Once, the battle was whether gays could have sex. Now the battle is over what to call a gay relationship. Once, the battle was whether those who didn't attend the state religion regularly could vote. Now, the battle is over how close a different religion should be able to build a mosque next to the site of a terrorist attack. Once, the battle was over whether members of other races should be allowed to fully participate in society. Now, the battle is over what to do about those who enter the country illegally.

So what is this country becoming? Better, that's what.

It is interesting that you mark these progressions as a good thing. You either think that the march of progress has stopped at exactly the appropriate place, on all of the issues I mentioned, or you have got to admit that the Republican party is the primary reservoir for yesterday's ignorance. I will happily grant that there are some ignorant democrats on all of these issues, but the Republican party is the natural home.

[DU Ute]

It is interesting that you mark these progressions as a good thing. You either think that the march of progress has stopped at exactly the appropriate place, on all of the issues I mentioned, or you have got to admit that the Republican party is the primary reservoir for yesterday's ignorance. I will happily grant that there are some ignorant democrats on all of these issues, but the Republican party is the natural home.

Yes, but the Democratic party holds the keys to the ignorance of the future. I don't know which is worse.

[All-American]

It is interesting that you mark these progressions as a good thing. You either think that the march of progress has stopped at exactly the appropriate place, on all of the issues I mentioned, or you have got to admit that the Republican party is the primary reservoir for yesterday's ignorance. I will happily grant that there are some ignorant democrats on all of these issues, but the Republican party is the natural home.

I would point out that the Republican party was the force behind addressing slavery, polygamy, and granting citizenship to other races if I didn't think you were just trolling.

[Indy Coug]

We were just talking about why the illegal immigration issue has found such purchase in 2009-2010. The problem has existed for years, and people have gone back and forth on whether it is acceptable or unacceptable. I think it is purely the economy. With a bad economy, people resent illegal workers for 2 reasons:

1. They take american jobs or opportunities.
2. They take american citizen's public benefits. (schools, health care, etc)

and to a lesser extent, reciprocity. If we can't get jobs/benefits/own property/etc there from their governments, why do we give them jobs/benefits/etc here?

If the economy was booming, this issue would disappear overnight.

I'm not sure I buy the recession explanation. The groundswell for this began several years ago back when unemployment was around 5%. That was back when Bush was saying they would 'do jobs Americans aren't willing to do". That's probably true as my guess that there was a labor shortage for unskilled labor back then.

[All-American]

I'm not sure I buy the recession explanation. The groundswell for this began several years ago back when unemployment was around 5%. That was back when Bush was saying they would 'do jobs Americans aren't willing to do". That's probably true as my guess that there was a labor shortage for unskilled labor back then.

If I had to try to trace the genesis of the surge of attention on immigration, I might look back at September 11. Things may have taken an economic twist, but I thought that originally, the main arguing point was on promoting security.

[oxcoug]

We were just talking about why the illegal immigration issue has found such purchase in 2009-2010. The problem has existed for years, and people have gone back and forth on whether it is acceptable or unacceptable. I think it is purely the economy. With a bad economy, people resent illegal workers for 2 reasons:

1. They take american jobs or opportunities.
2. They take american citizen's public benefits. (schools, health care, etc)

and to a lesser extent, reciprocity. If we can't get jobs/benefits/own property/etc there from their governments, why do we give them jobs/benefits/etc here?

If the economy was booming, this issue would disappear overnight.

To put a sharper point on your 2 - the anti-illegal-immigration lobby in the past two years has failed to make the case that it's all for and all about LEGAL immigration. It's allowed the public perception to take root that they are just opposed to people who look different and come from different places.

This obviously isn't the case, at least not for main body of people concerned about illegal immigration. As the younger brother of two adopted ethnically Chinese immigrant brothers and the older brother of one adopted Chinese/Taiwanese sister, I'm a huge fan of robust legal immigration.

But - back to your point - the concern isn't that they "take Americans benefits" - it's simply that illegal immigration imposes costs on the state and the taxpayers, which the state and the taxpayers don't recoup. And it is very much, at the same time, that this is frequently happening with people who have little interest in - and in their defense often no chance - assimilating or embracing the civic culture of the US, as all past waves of US immigrants have done.

But for the majority of people concerned about illegal immigration - at least those that I know - there isn't the slightest bit of xenophobia or racism.

[oxcoug]

61% of New Yorkers oppose the mosque

and only 33% support it. That's in a city where self-identified liberals outnumber self-identified conservatives 2-1.

http://www.siena.edu/uploadedfiles/h...%20Release.pdf

So maybe it's not quite the liberal-conservative thing you imagine it to be.

Maybe it's just a little gratuitous and a touch ill-advised to go putting a massive monument to the religion which provided the background and justification (however distorted or misconstrued those justifications might have been by the perps) for the greatest American tragedy of our lifetimes, within a stone's throw of the site of the tragedy.

Maybe the overwhelming will of the people who actually had to live with that tragedy and are still living with that tragedy should be respected (I speak in part of my ex-girlfriend, a native New Yorker and a current New Yorker who still has a physical/emotional reaction when looking at Downtown Manhattan from Brooklyn and who is a non-religious center-left doctor who voted for Obama).