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  • How to Save America?

    The Fourth of July has hopefully served as a useful reminder that America is a pretty nice place, and certainly worth preserving. Most Americans, however, seem to think that we're heading in the wrong direction. So what, if anything, needs to change?

    My personal feeling is that the root of most of America's problems is the inability to appreciate the simple fact that you can't have everything you want. We live in an age of near limitless opportunity, it seems. There's a sense that it's almost "un-American" to constrain consumption. The "American Way" is to buy a sprawling house in the suburbs with a three car garage, complete with the cars to fill it and all the other lifestyle trappings to accompany it. We get what we want, and we get it now.

    I see something of a similar sort going on a collective level in the halls of government, and neither party is free of blame. It's not that health care, social security, or whatever else isn't an inherently valuable goal; the problem is that we've dissociated the price of these goods, such that we don't really seem to appreciate how much it costs. As long as "somebody else" is paying for these things (and lately, "somebody else" is the richest percentages), there will be little to curb the spending appetite of government.

    I feel that the single most important thing that would point America back in the right direction would be to re-embrace the concept, on an individual as well as a collective level, that there are some things which we just can't afford.

    We perhaps have shied away from this notion as suggesting weakness, but never in the history of the world has fiscal responsibility been so interpreted. In Rome, the opposite was true; thrift and prudence was considered the foundation of society, and luxuria, emblematic of decadent and extravagant living, was a disease, the tragic flaw that could undermine the very existence of the Republic. There's an argument to be made that the influence of luxuria from the East was indeed one of the main contributing causes to the fall of both Rome and (to some extent) Greece.

    Addressing this problem in its modern form can be tricky, of course. It would not be wise to limit access or use of credit, which can so often allow for fiscally responsible decisions in the first place. How else to go about it . . . I'm not sure. And who knows-- maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  • #2
    America is deaf to your idea:

    [YOUTUBE]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/v7ysc1P1sH4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/v7ysc1P1sH4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

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    If you've never watched this speech, it's a revelation. People pillory Carter, but this was a damned good speech. It also serves to illustrate how the constant "saving of America" will always be with us.
    Last edited by wuapinmon; 07-05-2010, 09:41 AM.
    "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
    The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

    Comment


    • #3
      I like to ponder two different parts of that great allegory () the Book of Mormon. First, good old King Mosiah's advice on representative government:

      Mosiah 29:26:

      26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

      27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.
      Later in the story allegory, the majority of the people actually end up choosing iniquity:

      Helaman 5:2:

      2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.
      I think these scriptures are occasionally abused in an alarmist manner, but they are there, and they do give one pause when one considers the actions of various governments on both left and right.
      “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
      ― W.H. Auden


      "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
      -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


      "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
      --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
        America is deaf to your idea:

        [YOUTUBE]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/v7ysc1P1sH4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/v7ysc1P1sH4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

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        [YOUTUBE]
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        If you've never watched this speech, it's a revelation. People pillory Carter, but this was a damned good speech. It also serves to illustrate how the constant "saving of America" will always be with us.
        Well, wuap brings up a second good point. Americans have an abbreviated attention span. Anybody care to summarize?

        EDIT: Found the written form: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/...ps_crisis.html. My goodness-- change some of the dates, and a lot of that speech could have been given yesterday. Have we really made so little progress?
        Last edited by All-American; 07-05-2010, 12:05 PM.
        τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
          I like to ponder two different parts of that great allegory () the Book of Mormon. First, good old King Mosiah's advice on representative government:

          Mosiah 29:26:



          Later in the story allegory, the majority of the people actually end up choosing iniquity:

          Helaman 5:2:



          I think these scriptures are occasionally abused in an alarmist manner, but they are there, and they do give one pause when one considers the actions of various governments on both left and right.
          More on this thought. As I see it, you could be suggesting one of three alternatives:

          1. The country is doing just fine.
          2. The country is not doing just fine, and it's because the government is not responsive to the voice of the people.
          3. The country is not doing just fine, and it's because the people are choosing evil over good.

          If I'm reading you correctly, you're suggesting that #3 is the case. If so, in what ways are the people choosing good over evil? How might choices of that kind threaten the nation's well-being?

          On a similar note, by what means does the choice of evil over good pose threats to a nation? I suppose some may believe that God actively punishes those who choose evil, and that righteousness is the only way to avoid the wrath of a vengeful God. To me, that seems like God is just playing whack-a-mole with his children, whacking them as soon as their iniquity is sufficiently ripened. I don't know that I believe that to be the case. I rather believe that the effects of sin are natural consequences. Failure to abide by the principles upon which freedom and liberty are based result in a loss of that freedom and liberty, not because God has taken it away, but because the people can no longer sustain it.

          If my latter viewpoint is the more accurate, what are those principles, and what are we currently doing that sustains or undermines them?
          τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by All-American View Post
            Well, wuap brings up a second good point. Americans have an abbreviated attention span. Anybody care to summarize?


            Excerpts for the dolts who can't be bothered to WATCH a speech:

            I want to talk to you right now about a fundamental threat to American democracy. . . . I do not refer to the outward strength of America, a nation that is at peace tonight everywhere in the world, with unmatched economic power and military might. The threat is nearly invisible in ordinary ways. It is a crisis of confidence. It is a crisis that strikes at the very heart and soul and spirit of our national will. We can see this crisis in the growing doubt about the meaning of our own lives and in the loss of a unity of purpose for our nation. . . .
            In a nation that was proud of hard work, strong families, close-knit communities, and our faith in God, too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption. Human identity is no longer defined by what one does, but by what one owns. But we've discovered that owning things and consuming things does not satisfy our longing for meaning. . . .
            I'm asking you for your good and for your nation's security to take no unnecessary trips, to use carpools or public transportation whenever you can, to park your car one extra day per week, to obey the speed limit, and to set your thermostats to save fuel... I have seen the strength of America in the inexhaustible resources of our people. In the days to come, let us renew that strength in the struggle for an energy-secure nation. . . .
            "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
            The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by All-American View Post
              Well, wuap brings up a second good point. Americans have an abbreviated attention span. Anybody care to summarize?

              EDIT: Found the written form: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/...ps_crisis.html. My goodness-- change some of the dates, and a lot of that speech could have been given yesterday. Have we really made so little progress?
              This was Carter's infamous "malaise" speech.
              "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill


              "I only know what I hear on the news." - Dear Leader

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm sure every generation since 1776 had its fear mongers worrying about the nation's demise.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
                  This was Carter's infamous "malaise" speech.
                  It's generally regarded as one of the low points in any presidency. You do have the "I'm not a crook" line coming from Nixon earlier that decade, so I guess Jimmah had that going for him.

                  I think it's difficult to argue with Jimmah's point regarding how we shouldn't measure everything in materialistic terms. But he was kind of preaching to the choir with that one, everyone already understands this at some level except for the Big Swinging Dicks and Paris Hiltons of the world.

                  The point can be made with a sense of optimism and hope. No one wants to be told that they should be thankful for what they have and not to hope that things will ever improve.
                  Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
                    It's generally regarded as one of the low points in any presidency. You do have the "I'm not a crook" line coming from Nixon earlier that decade, so I guess Jimmah had that going for him.

                    I think it's difficult to argue with Jimmah's point regarding how we shouldn't measure everything in materialistic terms. But he was kind of preaching to the choir with that one, everyone already understands this at some level except for the Big Swinging Dicks and Paris Hiltons of the world.

                    The point can be made with a sense of optimism and hope. No one wants to be told that they should be thankful for what they have and not to hope that things will ever improve.
                    Carter made the same mistake then that Obama is making now. We didn't need a lecture, we needed a cheerleader, someone who would encourage us and give us the confidence we needed to make America a better nation. Fortunately, he came riding in with these words in 1981:

                    We are not, as some would have us believe, doomed to an inevitable decline. I do not believe in a fate that will fall on us no matter what we do. I do believe in a fate that will fall on us if we do nothing. So, with all the creative energy at our command, let us begin an era of national renewal. Let us renew our determination, our courage, and our strength. And let us renew our faith and our hope.

                    We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we are in a time when there are no heroes just don't know where to look. You can see heroes every day going in and out of factory gates. Others, a handful in number, produce enough food to feed all of us and then the world beyond. You meet heroes across a counter—and they are on both sides of that counter. There are entrepreneurs with faith in themselves and faith in an idea who create new jobs, new wealth and opportunity. They are individuals and families whose taxes support the Government and whose voluntary gifts support church, charity, culture, art, and education. Their patriotism is quiet but deep. Their values sustain our national life.

                    I have used the words "they" and "their" in speaking of these heroes. I could say "you" and "your" because I am addressing the heroes of whom I speak—you, the citizens of this blessed land. Your dreams, your hopes, your goals are going to be the dreams, the hopes, and the goals of this administration, so help me God.

                    We shall reflect the compassion that is so much a part of your makeup. How can we love our country and not love our countrymen, and loving them, reach out a hand when they fall, heal them when they are sick, and provide opportunities to make them self-sufficient so they will be equal in fact and not just in theory?

                    Can we solve the problems confronting us? Well, the answer is an unequivocal and emphatic "yes."
                    sigpic
                    "Outlined against a blue, gray
                    October sky the Four Horsemen rode again"
                    Grantland Rice, 1924

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      To summarize:
                      1. America is headed down the wrong track.
                      2. America is awesome and will probably get on the right track in the near future. 2010, 2012 anyone??
                      3. Carter sucked.
                      4. Reagan kicked ass.
                      "Remember to double tap"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by All-American View Post
                        More on this thought. As I see it, you could be suggesting one of three alternatives:

                        1. The country is doing just fine.
                        2. The country is not doing just fine, and it's because the government is not responsive to the voice of the people.
                        3. The country is not doing just fine, and it's because the people are choosing evil over good.

                        If I'm reading you correctly, you're suggesting that #3 is the case. If so, in what ways are the people choosing good over evil? How might choices of that kind threaten the nation's well-being?

                        On a similar note, by what means does the choice of evil over good pose threats to a nation? I suppose some may believe that God actively punishes those who choose evil, and that righteousness is the only way to avoid the wrath of a vengeful God. To me, that seems like God is just playing whack-a-mole with his children, whacking them as soon as their iniquity is sufficiently ripened. I don't know that I believe that to be the case. I rather believe that the effects of sin are natural consequences. Failure to abide by the principles upon which freedom and liberty are based result in a loss of that freedom and liberty, not because God has taken it away, but because the people can no longer sustain it.

                        If my latter viewpoint is the more accurate, what are those principles, and what are we currently doing that sustains or undermines them?
                        I suspect you have some answers to your questions in your own mind already, which makes me wonder why you are asking them. Besides, I am certainly not the first one to raise this concern. Your questions are the kind I would expect from someone who's seen that concern raised for the first time, which I know is not true in your case.

                        Even so, I will bite, ever so gently. Based on some rather straightforward statements in the scriptures and in modern prophetic declarations (the Proclamation on The Family comes immediately to mind) I don't think it's difficult to come up with some choices that the majority of American society seem to be making, or on the verge of making, that constitute iniquity or evil.

                        For example, marriage (and I am talking only about the regular old heterosexual kind) certainly has become less popular than it used to be. Lots of children are growing up fatherless (and sometimes motherless). There is a fair amount of data supporting the deleterious effects of that trend. And yet more and more of our society seems unwilling to condemn such choices or to judge them unacceptable or even deplorable. That seems to me to be the kind of slow-motion train wreck that the BofM verses I cited are warning us about.

                        As for the "judgments of God," I am not too interested in predicting exactly how he imposes them. To me it is more important to recognize that such judgments to exist and that we have been warned about them.
                        “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                        ― W.H. Auden


                        "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                        -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                        "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                        --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by cowboy View Post
                          Carter made the same mistake then that Obama is making now. We didn't need a lecture, we needed a cheerleader, someone who would encourage us and give us the confidence we needed to make America a better nation. Fortunately, he came riding in with these words in 1981:
                          Thanks for posting that bit of Reagan's speech. That is the kind of thinking we need again in this country.
                          "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill


                          "I only know what I hear on the news." - Dear Leader

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by venkman View Post
                            To summarize:
                            1. America is headed down the wrong track.
                            2. America is awesome and will probably get on the right track in the near future. 2010, 2012 anyone??
                            3. Carter sucked.
                            4. Reagan kicked ass.
                            "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill


                            "I only know what I hear on the news." - Dear Leader

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                              I suspect you have some answers to your questions in your own mind already, which makes me wonder why you are asking them. Besides, I am certainly not the first one to raise this concern. Your questions are the kind I would expect from someone who's seen that concern raised for the first time, which I know is not true in your case.

                              Even so, I will bite, ever so gently. Based on some rather straightforward statements in the scriptures and in modern prophetic declarations (the Proclamation on The Family comes immediately to mind) I don't think it's difficult to come up with some choices that the majority of American society seem to be making, or on the verge of making, that constitute iniquity or evil.

                              For example, marriage (and I am talking only about the regular old heterosexual kind) certainly has become less popular than it used to be. Lots of children are growing up fatherless (and sometimes motherless). There is a fair amount of data supporting the deleterious effects of that trend. And yet more and more of our society seems unwilling to condemn such choices or to judge them unacceptable or even deplorable. That seems to me to be the kind of slow-motion train wreck that the BofM verses I cited are warning us about.

                              As for the "judgments of God," I am not too interested in predicting exactly how he imposes them. To me it is more important to recognize that such judgments to exist and that we have been warned about them.
                              I have SOME ideas as to what SOME of the answers may be. I'm asking you for two reasons. One, part of the exercise is taking the temperature, so to speak of other Americans, and seeing what they perceive to be the problem and what they suggest are viable solutions. A question so intertwined with the American mood may be worth asking even if I did think I knew the answers. Second, as arrogant as I can be, I'm not yet hubristic enough to think that the answers I have couldn't possibly be wrong or insufficient.
                              τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

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