Why doesn't it surprise me

[The_Tick]

The political will to amend the constitutions in this regard will never materialize in our lifetime.

Because there isn't a politician with a sack of stones that is willing to do shit.

Things that need to be fixed but never will:

Medical
SSI
Immigration
IRS

But not a damn thing will ever be done because it is assisted suicide for a politician. Someone will get their nose bent and wont be able to be re-elected because he did something that wasn't popular with a certain group of people.

Well holy shit...sometimes stuff has to be done that isn't popular. But you take care of you CITIZENS first. Those that are legal and documented. You take care of the rest 2nd.

I would love to find a politician willing to commit political suicide and had the backing to do it. It needs to be done.

Sometimes fixing shit hurts. But once it is fixed we are better for it.

And here is what I would do:

Medical - If we are going to go with National Healthcare I am fine with it. But it applies to the President and works his way down. Everyone. Government employees don't get a special deal. This way they politicians will work to the benefit of the people.

SSI - Not sure on this one. But it needs to be made solvent and it needs to be done quickly.

Immigration - Make the road to legal citizenship easier. But tighten up the boarders. If you have been here "x" amount of years you can have amnesty. If you have been here less than that you take your chances. If you come into the country after a certain date "illegally" you can never gain citzenship. If you are here illegally and commit a felony you are shipped home never to return.

If you are born to legal parents you are a citizen. If your parents don't have legal status, neither do you. Ends the "pregnancy incentive".


IRS - Flat tax. I would like 10% but I don't think that will work. I figure 20%. There is no such thing as a tax return anymore. 20% is taken right from your check. No deductibles.

No job, no tax return. No EIC.

I would also increase the taxes on businesses that outsource their jobs outside of the US. Giving them a tax break if the jobs are currently outsourced but are brought back into the US.

Wouldn't make me popular, but it is a start.

[Moliere]

I agree with your requirement that speaking English is a factor. It's the language that is spoken here and in order to be successful, one must be able to speak it.

SHAQ seems to be doing just fine without it.

[Uncle Ted]

You have to start somewhere. So here is where I would start. If you are undocumented and can meet the following requirements, you get to stay. After 5 years, if you meet the same requirements and can speak reasonable English, you can apply for citizenship.

I have lived in the USA all my life and still don't feel like I have a reasonable understanding of English. Maybe we could settle on a more universal language like mathematics?

Requirement 2) You have a US husband, wife, father or mother or children who will sponsor you. They are responsible for your physical care. Food, shelter, etc.

I know a lady that is not an US citizen but both her husband and child are. She went home for her brother's funeral and, because of some problem with her visa or something, they would not let her back into the country. She is now living here illegally to be with her husband and child. It seems she really has no other choice other than to live here illegally or live in Mexico without her family.

[Indy Coug]

I know a lady that is not an US citizen but both her husband and child are. She went home for her brother's funeral and, because of some problem with her visa or something, they would not let her back into the country. She is now living here illegally to be with her husband and child. It seems she really has no other choice other than to live here illegally or live in Mexico without her family.

That is so bass-ackwards.

[byu71]

I know a lady that is not an US citizen but both her husband and child are. She went home for her brother's funeral and, because of some problem with her visa or something, they would not let her back into the country. She is now living here illegally to be with her husband and child. It seems she really has no other choice other than to live here illegally or live in Mexico without her family.

It is stories like this that make me think, something has to be done!! If they made it here, stayed here, started raising a family here, screw the law. I am not saying you put family over laws like, theft, murder, rape, etc., but I am saying laws that are largely ignored anyway, the family comes before the law.

That is why those that want amnesty can get to me. Tell stories like this.

Marching in the streets and smearing crap on public buidlings does nothing for me. Reminds me the la raza (or whatever that gang is) has also illegally crossed the border.

[Moliere]

Opening the borders wouldn't have to be disorderly. In fact, we could seriously ramp up the punishment for illegal entry, especially if we were to have such a generous immigration policy.

Robin, I honestly am curious as to what you think of this idea with immigration.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...7&postcount=77

I'd also like to see what you think should be done. I assume you have stated it before in detail so you can link it if necessary.

[il Padrino Ute]

SHAQ seems to be doing just fine without it.

+1!

[RobinFinderson]

Robin, I honestly am curious as to what you think of this idea with immigration.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...7&postcount=77

I'd also like to see what you think should be done. I assume you have stated it before in detail so you can link it if necessary.

I don't really have a strong POV on immigration. I can break down my thoughts on the problem:

Strong concerns:
My biggest problem with undocumented immigrants is that they drive down labor costs, which in turn depresses the entire labor market.

Unsure:
Undocumented immigrants definitely cost taxpayers in terms of social services, but they also contribute significantly to the economy. I have never seen any study that attempts to reflect the net economic effect (costs and contributions).

Don't Care:
I don't care that if immigrants 'assimilate.' I like Spanish, and I like foreign food, and I like the benefits that come from communities that see the world differently than I do.

I don't care if immigrants are disproportionately committing crimes that are associated with poverty culture. If they are poor, and live in poor neighborhoods, they are going to disproportionately adopt aspects of criminal culture that pervades our poorest neighborhoods.

So I don't know what kinds of plans I would support. I don't think that undocumented immigration poses such a problem that it justifies curbing civil rights (per AZ law). I hate to see undocumented immigrants get deported. This is expensive, and really hurts families who often desperately need the money.

I don't think your plan is bad. I kind of like it. I might even support it. I wouldn't limit the number of years that a person could work here, and I would keep fees very minimal.

The reason I think common sense immigration reform doesn't happen is because Republicans are in the pocket of the corporations that benefit most from the depressed labor market. Democrats think that most citizen children will eventually vote Democratic. Both sides are invested in the status quo.

[Uncle Ted]

I don't really have a strong POV on immigration. I can break down my thoughts on the problem:

Strong concerns:
My biggest problem with undocumented immigrants is that they drive down labor costs, which in turn depresses the entire labor market.

Undocumented immigrants most likely have little impact on wages.

"The most respected recent studies show that most Americans would notice little difference in their paychecks if illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared from the United States. That's because most Americans don't directly compete with illegal immigrants for jobs."

Of course, the high school dropouts might benefit if undocumented immigrants suddenly disappeared. High school drop outs might want to move to Arizona to fill the new void created by its new immigration law. The influx of high school dropouts most likely would have a larger impact on Arizona's social programs unlike undocumented immigrants...

Unsure:
Undocumented immigrants definitely cost taxpayers in terms of social services, but they also contribute significantly to the economy. I have never seen any study that attempts to reflect the net economic effect (costs and contributions).

This may depend on the social service. With social security, for example, they are a definitely a benefit since they pay in but don't make a claim for the benefit. Where they take more than they put in is most likely in is social programs like emergency health care.

Of course, part of the problem with undocumented immigrates is how the taxes they pay are collected. Little as 50% of undocumented immigrates pay income taxes and, therefore, a lot of the potential tax revenue is lost. In Texas, for example, it is estimated that undocumented immigrates are a positive contributor in respect to what they pay in with taxes and get out from the government. Of course, Texas doesn't have incomes taxes but rather sales, property, and other consumption taxes and fees.

Don't Care:
I don't care that if immigrants 'assimilate.' I like Spanish, and I like foreign food, and I like the benefits that come from communities that see the world differently than I do.

I would prefer if we could standardize on one language, however. Maybe we could compromise on "Spanglish". Printing and saying everything in two or more languages is a pain and increases costs.

I don't care if immigrants are disproportionately committing crimes that are associated with poverty culture. If they are poor, and live in poor neighborhoods, they are going to disproportionately adopt aspects of criminal culture that pervades our poorest neighborhoods.

Undocumented immigrates, IMO, are less likely to commit crimes because of the fear of deportation. I haven't seen any studies on this, however.

[RobinFinderson]

Undocumented immigrants most likely have little impact on wages.

"The most respected recent studies show that most Americans would notice little difference in their paychecks if illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared from the United States. That's because most Americans don't directly compete with illegal immigrants for jobs."

I limited my original response to the 'labor market.' I would be curious to see the studies the interviewee is referring to here. Illegal workers don't unionize. Illegal workers have little recourse when they are ripped off. Illegal workers are often paid under the table. If I could be convinced that the research was thorough, then some dude popping off in an interview might mean more to me.

Also, someone has to look after the best interests of HS dropouts. They aren't insignificant in number, and at this point a HS graduate without additional skills will be competing for the same jobs as a HS dropout. That is a lot of people.

I would prefer if we could standardize on one language, however. Maybe we could compromise on "Spanglish". Printing and saying everything in two or more languages is a pain and increases costs.

It really isn't such a huge cost to produce documents in several languages. These costs are further mitigated as things get more digital. It is also the purpose of government to serve its citizens, and we have tons of citizens who don't speak English as their first language. Standardizing would be a big poke in the eye. At some point in the future, Spanish may be the predominant language spoken in the US. Would you be bothered if the nation's leaders switched to Spanish, and required your great great grandchildren to learn Spanish as their primary language in school?

[The_Tick]

Would you be bothered if the nation's leaders switched to Spanish, and required your great great grandchildren to learn Spanish as their primary language in school?

I would be bothered. And I don't want to hear the whole "California used to belong to them" line. If that was the case we would all be speaking Navajo or Cherokee.

If I pick my family up and we move to Italy, I would start to learn Italian. And I would expect my children to learn Italian. And I would expect my Grandchildren to grow up with Italian as their primary language.

[il Padrino Ute]

I would be bothered. And I don't want to hear the whole "California used to belong to them" line. If that was the case we would all be speaking Navajo or Cherokee.

If I pick my family up and we move to Italy, I would start to learn Italian. And I would expect my children to learn Italian. And I would expect my Grandchildren to grow up with Italian as their primary language.

Exactly. It's about assimilation. If one chooses to immigrate to another country, one should adapt to that country. There's nothing wrong with continuing to speak the native language or practice native customs within the privacy of the home, but to be a part of the new country, an immigrant needs to be a part of this great "melting pot" where many cultures have come together to be a part of one identity - American. And to be an American, it's necessary to speak English.

[Uncle Ted]

I limited my original response to the 'labor market.' I would be curious to see the studies the interviewee is referring to here. Illegal workers don't unionize. Illegal workers have little recourse when they are ripped off. Illegal workers are often paid under the table. If I could be convinced that the research was thorough, then some dude popping off in an interview might mean more to me.

Also, someone has to look after the best interests of HS dropouts. They aren't insignificant in number, and at this point a HS graduate without additional skills will be competing for the same jobs as a HS dropout. That is a lot of people.

According to this study the impact on wages would be about 4% overall and for high school drop outs:

"Among natives without a high school education, who roughly correspond to the poorest tenth of the workforce, the estimated impact was even larger, reducing their wages by 7.4 percent."

As for unions, I would agree that undocumented immigrates would most likely not riot in the streets, damage property and kill people, however, I don't see why they wouldn't still join.

It really isn't such a huge cost to produce documents in several languages. These costs are further mitigated as things get more digital. It is also the purpose of government to serve its citizens, and we have tons of citizens who don't speak English as their first language. Standardizing would be a big poke in the eye. At some point in the future, Spanish may be the predominant language spoken in the US. Would you be bothered if the nation's leaders switched to Spanish, and required your great great grandchildren to learn Spanish as their primary language in school?

The cost of printing is not the only problem...

For example, there was a lawsuit in New Mexico because they use to give their driver's license tests in English and Spanish but not other languages. The ruling was if they offer the driver's license test in Spanish they would have to support all the languages. New Mexico wisely dropped the Spanish version of their driver's license test.

The cost of staffing government offices with multilingual workers could get very costly as well. Standards are a good thing.

[RobinFinderson]

I would be bothered. And I don't want to hear the whole "California used to belong to them" line. If that was the case we would all be speaking Navajo or Cherokee.

If I pick my family up and we move to Italy, I would start to learn Italian. And I would expect my children to learn Italian. And I would expect my Grandchildren to grow up with Italian as their primary language.

If Spanish becomes the most dominant language in the US, by your own standards, you should expect your great great grandchildren to accept it.

In Los Angeles we may see Spanish become the dominant language within the next ten years. As a conservative, you are a local government supporter, no? Does that mean that places like LA should have Spanish language instruction as the primary language in public schools?

Edit: For that matter, Kern county may already have a majority of Spanish speakers in the public school system.

[frank ryan]

It is stories like this that make me think, something has to be done!! If they made it here, stayed here, started raising a family here, screw the law. I am not saying you put family over laws like, theft, murder, rape, etc., but I am saying laws that are largely ignored anyway, the family comes before the law.

That is why those that want amnesty can get to me. Tell stories like this.

Marching in the streets and smearing crap on public buidlings does nothing for me. Reminds me the la raza (or whatever that gang is) has also illegally crossed the border.

Do you ms13? They are from El Salvador. They are a scary bunch, there is also the Mexican Mafia. Those are the main hispanic gangs in california.

I limited my original response to the 'labor market.' I would be curious to see the studies the interviewee is referring to here. Illegal workers don't unionize. Illegal workers have little recourse when they are ripped off. Illegal workers are often paid under the table. If I could be convinced that the research was thorough, then some dude popping off in an interview might mean more to me.

Also, someone has to look after the best interests of HS dropouts. They aren't insignificant in number, and at this point a HS graduate without additional skills will be competing for the same jobs as a HS dropout. That is a lot of people.



It really isn't such a huge cost to produce documents in several languages. These costs are further mitigated as things get more digital. It is also the purpose of government to serve its citizens, and we have tons of citizens who don't speak English as their first language. Standardizing would be a big poke in the eye. At some point in the future, Spanish may be the predominant language spoken in the US. Would you be bothered if the nation's leaders switched to Spanish, and required your great great grandchildren to learn Spanish as their primary language in school?

Illegal immigrants are notoriously difficult to organize. Businesses know this.