Tea Party Observations

[byu71]

I'm fine helping the less fortunate and it's better that everyone chip in rather than just those who want to be chartiable.

Here is the real dilema for me. How do we define the less fortunate? How much equalization should we make between the so called "haves" and "have nots".

Is the European model a good one?

Are there ridiculous inequities, sure. I can point out some guy who loses his health care, his job and is real down and out. He is also a responsible guy, who is just had some bad luck. On the other end we have these guys running hedge funds, not all hedge funds and I am not pointing toward my friend Viking here, who make billions by making speculative risks with other people's money that leads to economic chaos.

When I use those two examples, yea I am ticked and would be just fine taking the hedge fund guys money and giving it to the hard luck guys. Problem is, it ain't that simple.

While you are soaking the "rich" you have visions of nailing the "wall street" types, but you forget about the people who have built up business's and hire plenty of people. You forget about the guy who worked his butt and brains off to build a company that does $50 million in sales, employess 200-300 people and now makes over a million a year. You lump him in with those SOB rich people.

I remember a conversation I had with my ex's second husband. The kids told him how much I make, luckily the kids didn't really know. However, what they told him was twice what he was making. He said he would really like to make what I did. I told him I could get him a job. He would have to work 12 hours a day. Call about 200 people a day. Convince them to invest and if they didn't he would make nothing. It is all commission.

He told me he preferred to spend his time writing and performing music and so couldn't work more than 8 hours a day. He also wanted to spend more time with his church activities. He said he also couldn't possibly live without the security of knowing a paycheck was coming in. He also told my kids many times after our conversation, your Dad is lucky he makes what he does.

Ok, what is fair. How much of the income I make should I have transferred to him to equal things out because I was lucky and he wasn't.

[beefytee]

What is really weird is that most Tea Party Supporters think their taxes are fair! Makes me wonder what is really driving this movement?

I think that because of April 15th lots of the emphasis has been on taxes, but from what I've seen directly from them, their biggest issue is spending and the deficit/debt.

[dabrockster]

I attended my first Tea Party rally yesterday. They had a nice Food bank Donation section up that had more cans than I have ever seen collected through any business.. I think these statistics do not truly show the people who consider themselves part of this group. Nor a true reflection of the people there Your comment about them not being the most charitable is laughable and over righteous indignation.. LAME..



This was my first meeting and I enjoyed it because I like to "People Watch".

My observations from attending.

I did not see many African Americans there. A small group of them and we did have one speaker who was African American. She is running for a local election here.

There was a Latino group there very vocal. They had a sign that made me chuckle. "Hey Media Look at me!! I'm a Latino and conservative"..

There seems to be a very large mix of populations in there. I saw teenagers with their girlfriends, college students, young businessman/women, Young married couples, middle aged couples, whole Families, and even the elderly.

Most of them had different slogan/signs, but one thing is clear. They do not like the Massive spending by the Federal Govt. That is the largest beef they all had.

One thing that stood out for me was how many of them owned their business (Questions I asked in conversation). Which is why I think some of your statistics is biased nor show the full picture. As self employed they have seen a decline in their business and have paid a large portion of the taxes as a business owner. They see Health care coming and know it will have an even larger negative impact on their business and the people they employ. These people are the working middle class..

The crowd was friendly and there was a lot of booths set up for various organizations and petitions. And the largest was the Food Bank one (But this would never been mentioned in the media). I watched families and children bring box after box of canned foods..

We even had your 3 token liberals there mingling with the crowd with their signs. Reading "Obama is not a Socialist, I AM", and "Financial Bailouts for Capitalist is NOT Socialism". It made me chuckle because all of those people there disagreed with the bailouts just like these three stoogies (Just a different reason).. One of them spent most of the time having lively discussions with some of the people there. She was getting out of hand in her antics and the cops came and threatened to take her away if she kept it up. Most were polite to them and said hello and moved on. Others truly wanted to have a simple conversation with her. The other two were very silent and just held up there sign. It was all done very civil.. Much to the dismay of the 3 liberals antics and desire to provoke the crowd.. A 4th showed up who was even more rowdy and the Police lead him away... Another interaction was a woman who held a sign next to the Socialist. It read, "PHONEY Tea Party member here". (With an arrow pointing to the guy holding the Socialist sign". I thought that was pretty good...


Overall, I enjoyed my interaction with the people and the rally in general..

[Jeff Lebowski]

That people are very rarely suspended is not an indication that there is no censorship. CUF definately has its rules--they're just not formalized.

I could write a post that would get me suspended in a NY minute.

Haven't you read our stickies in the Town Hall?

[NorthShoreCoug]

Why do the age and religion percents add up to more than 100%?

Income, too - it adds up to 111%.

[Moliere]

One thing that stood out for me was how many of them owned their business (Questions I asked in conversation). Which is why I think some of your statistics is biased nor show the full picture. As self employed they have seen a decline in their business and have paid a large portion of the taxes as a business owner. They see Health care coming and know it will have an even larger negative impact on their business and the people they employ. These people are the working middle class..

This is not at all shocking based on the current set up of the tax system. Most people work for someone, and therefore receive a paycheck with taxes already deducted from gross salary. The withholding percentages are setup to pretty much assure someone of getting money back when they file their taxes. FICA taxes are also withheld. The basic premise is that when you never really get something in the first place, it's not as hard to give it up. People are accustomed to having their taxes withheld and getting a big check back in April. It's a sad situation, at lesat in my opinion.

If the tax system were set up where all people received their gross pay and had to write a check for taxes you would probably see a significant change in the apathy of some people. Instead of getting $1,000 back in April after having $9,000 withheld, imagine writing a $8,000 check. The cash flow would still be the same, but the perception and awareness would be vastly different.

Since business owners actually have to write those checks (in fact they do it quarterly for income taxes and more often for payroll/FICA taxes) it doesn't surprise me that these people would make up a good portion of the TEA partiers.

[BoylenOver]

I think that because of April 15th lots of the emphasis has been on taxes, but from what I've seen directly from them, their biggest issue is spending and the deficit/debt.

This is an admittedly loaded question, but where was this Tea Party outrage during the previous administration?

[Goatnapper'96]

This is not at all shocking based on the current set up of the tax system. Most people work for someone, and therefore receive a paycheck with taxes already deducted from gross salary. The withholding percentages are setup to pretty much assure someone of getting money back when they file their taxes. FICA taxes are also withheld. The basic premise is that when you never really get something in the first place, it's not as hard to give it up. People are accustomed to having their taxes withheld and getting a big check back in April. It's a sad situation, at lesat in my opinion.

If the tax system were set up where all people received their gross pay and had to write a check for taxes you would probably see a significant change in the apathy of some people. Instead of getting $1,000 back in April after having $9,000 withheld, imagine writing a $8,000 check. The cash flow would still be the same, but the perception and awareness would be vastly different.

Since business owners actually have to write those checks (in fact they do it quarterly for income taxes and more often for payroll/FICA taxes) it doesn't surprise me that these people would make up a good portion of the TEA partiers.

The emotional impact of quarterly taxes is huge with me. Just when I get over April 15th, I get stuck again in June. I am predisposed to a great deal of common ground with the TEA Party movement, but I think I could easily go comfortably numb if not for that reminder in June and again in September.

I had never really thought off your analysis of taxation and apathy.

[All-American]

This is an admittedly loaded question, but where was this Tea Party outrage during the previous administration?

I seem to remember a lot of people being upset about excessive spending during the previous administration. But I will now entertain arguments to the effect that the increase in outrage over the deficit has not been proportional to the increase in the deficit itself.

[All-American]

This is not at all shocking based on the current set up of the tax system. Most people work for someone, and therefore receive a paycheck with taxes already deducted from gross salary. The withholding percentages are setup to pretty much assure someone of getting money back when they file their taxes. FICA taxes are also withheld. The basic premise is that when you never really get something in the first place, it's not as hard to give it up. People are accustomed to having their taxes withheld and getting a big check back in April. It's a sad situation, at lesat in my opinion.

If the tax system were set up where all people received their gross pay and had to write a check for taxes you would probably see a significant change in the apathy of some people. Instead of getting $1,000 back in April after having $9,000 withheld, imagine writing a $8,000 check. The cash flow would still be the same, but the perception and awareness would be vastly different.

Since business owners actually have to write those checks (in fact they do it quarterly for income taxes and more often for payroll/FICA taxes) it doesn't surprise me that these people would make up a good portion of the TEA partiers.

Good points.

When I worked for the Utah State legislature, the paycheck that I got showed how much they "paid" me, how much was deducted in state and federal taxes, and how much I would end up with on the check itself. A shrewd way, I suppose, to ensure that everybody who works for the state stays republican.

[Goatnapper'96]

This is an admittedly loaded question, but where was this Tea Party outrage during the previous administration?

Obviously conservatives are as hypocritical as anyone else. But there is government spending that doesn't bother them as much as other spending. The see more personal benefit from defense spending than increased entitlements for example. That might because they like to hide behind guns and God or it might be because a war has an endstate while increased entitlements do not. However, the explosion in the deficit as a consequence of increased spending is historic. Clearly, Obama is not the sole cause of that, but he has added to it more than any of his predecessors and with his additions it has come to a tipping point that many economists and pundits are pontificating about significantly more than ever before.

Further, President Obama has never kept it a secret of his intentions to redistribute wealth and his signature domestic accomplishment is another entitlement designed just for that purpose.

[kccougar]

This is not at all shocking based on the current set up of the tax system. Most people work for someone, and therefore receive a paycheck with taxes already deducted from gross salary. The withholding percentages are setup to pretty much assure someone of getting money back when they file their taxes. FICA taxes are also withheld. The basic premise is that when you never really get something in the first place, it's not as hard to give it up. People are accustomed to having their taxes withheld and getting a big check back in April. It's a sad situation, at lesat in my opinion.

If the tax system were set up where all people received their gross pay and had to write a check for taxes you would probably see a significant change in the apathy of some people. Instead of getting $1,000 back in April after having $9,000 withheld, imagine writing a $8,000 check. The cash flow would still be the same, but the perception and awareness would be vastly different.

Since business owners actually have to write those checks (in fact they do it quarterly for income taxes and more often for payroll/FICA taxes) it doesn't surprise me that these people would make up a good portion of the TEA partiers.

I totally agree with you. I'd like to completely eliminate automatic withholding.

[Moliere]

Good points.

When I worked for the Utah State legislature, the paycheck that I got showed how much they "paid" me, how much was deducted in state and federal taxes, and how much I would end up with on the check itself. A shrewd way, I suppose, to ensure that everybody who works for the state stays republican.

Well, all paychecks are required by law to have that information but I get your point. The difference between teh company withholding your taxes and paying them on your behalf and you paying them by writing a personal check made out to "Uncle Sam" is huge psycologically. The cash flow is the same but the psycoloigacal impact is different.

I'd argue we have the same issue with health care where most people never really see the true cost of health insurance or actual health care. Few people know the total premiums paid for their care since often times a majority of it is paid for by the company. This is probably why so many people are happy with their health care in spite of increasing health care costs. Only now that health insurance premiums are rising so fast that companies are pushing that cost down to the employees are they really getting the idea that the health care system is broken.

[VirginiaCougar]

Boylen,

Those two statistics are odd. On the age one, the over 65 category (29%) are also included in the larger over 45 category (75%). They would represent a subset of that 75%. I think (it isn't clear I agree) that the same is true on the religion question. The percent of Evangelicals is also included in the Protestant category of which they would be a subset.

I do believe you are right that many of those independents are Libertarians. A much smaller percentage (I personally believe, the poll doesn't ask this) are moderates/centrists between the two parties. Most would be farther on the right ideologically as far as the type of Libertarians.

So

Why do the age and religion percents add up to more than 100%?

It's interesting to see the demographics of those who identify as part of the Tea Party movement. The 41% as independent is surprising. I'm speculating, but would that number include those who identify as Libertarian? I suppose I've always considered independents/moderates as truly neutral, and if you care enough to identify with a movement, you're probably aligned with the prevailing ideology of that movement.

As an aside: Virginia, I speak for the board when I say we welcome you here, and we hope you recognize the tone and style of how topics are discussed.

[VirginiaCougar]

20%-30% are birthers. I totally don't agree with them and even if you want to label them odd for thinking that, since when does any group not have 20%-30% in their group that other think might be odd.

Why does the fact that tea party goers are higher income earners bother you? Think it through and as an intelligent thoughtful person, I am sure you will figure it out why that would be the case.

By the way, it will be nice to have you on board and you will find more acceptance of your view on things over here than you did on CB.

71,

Good question. A couple of thoughts.

1) if you add those that aren't sure about Obama's citizenship status you actually get half of the entire tea party population receptive to the idea of some grand conspiracy involving the US federal government, Hawaiian Government, Hawaiian newspapers that ran birth announcements back in the day, etc.

If someone is conservative, of course they aren't going to like Obama's policies, nor should they. He ran as a center-left candidate and has governed from the same place (Ask real liberals what they think of Obama's presidency - they are not very happy).

If one is further to the right, they would prefer other policies. That is fine and they should disagree. But many don't want to stop there, they want to discredit the man himself, and are willing to legitimize broader American Institutions in a kind of scorched earth process. That is the part that bothers me.

2) On the tax front, I would guess that if Romney had somehow won the Presidency he would have done many similar things (particularly on the economic front, and maybe eventually on health care). Many of the tea party folks I suspect would have praised Romney for his actions and the slowly recovering economy.

The amount they make doesn't bother me. The disconnect from others who are really suffering in this recession (kind of like saying I have mine and am going to close the door behind me) and from one of the narratives of the movement - "we can't handle the taxes that have increased" (while they have decreased to historic lows) are problematic to me personally.

3) I guess I wish that there was a wing of the GOP that said, "we don't like
everything Obama (Democrats) do. We will respectfully not support the
President when he pushes these things. But we will also actively seek
opportunities to compromise."

I actually believe this would serve the GOP well in the long run.

The GOP has lost many of its moderate members over the last few years, that
just may come back to haunt us.