My hell.

[Hallelujah]

Stand up for what you believe in ......... either way. Do what you think is right vs. politically expedient. This is the crap people are getting tired of.

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...Military.Gays/

[Tim]

Stand up for what you believe in ......... either way. Do what you think is right vs. politically expedient. This is the crap people are getting tired of.

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...Military.Gays/

What's right is to end discrimination. In fact, from what I've read, ending DADT is not necessarily the most politically expedient thing to do right now. The administration is serious about righting this wrong, though, so they're willing to spend some political capital on it.

How on earth can anyone possibly make this a question of right or wrong?!

[DU Ute]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JNK9w-Tq-k"]YouTube- Hallelujah (hell yeh i spelt it right)[/ame]

[Jeff Lebowski]

What's right is to end discrimination. In fact, from what I've read, ending DADT is not necessarily the most politically expedient thing to do right now. The administration is serious about righting this wrong, though, so they're willing to spend some political capital on it.

How on earth can anyone possibly make this a question of right or wrong?!

DADT is shameful. It amazes me that it is still policy.

[Viking]

Exute, this is your chance to finally come out. We are here for you brother. Admit your true identity and be free

[woot]

Exute, this is your chance to finally come out. We are here for you brother. Admit your true identity and be free

Hey, don't ask!

[byu71]

Whatever the generals say, that's what I agree with.

[Goatnapper'96]

Whatever the generals say, that's what I agree with.

There are reasons that the military is subjugated to civilian masters. Those old fashioned chivalric warriors with their flat bellies, barrel chests and steely eyed combat killin' machines are not always in tune with the will of the American people. I think Tim knows better what we need to be a more compassionate people and more popular with the frenchies!

DADT, just like gays not being able to marry, is a relic on the past in the not so distant future. My recommendation to the professionals in arms is to deal with it. Even if the brass thinks it will hurt the armed forces, do the smart thing and keep your mouths shut. The country doesn't need the political upheavel and the reality is it is coming whether the brass likes it or not. Take the advice of the greatest General of all time, GEN Robert Knight!

[Jeff Lebowski]

There are reasons that the military is subjugated to civilian masters. Those old fashioned chivalric warriors with their flat bellies, barrel chests and steely eyed combat killin' machines are not always in tune with the will of the American people. I think Tim knows better what we need to be a more compassionate people and more popular with the frenchies!

DADT, just like gays not being able to marry, is a relic on the past in the not so distant future. My recommendation to the professionals in arms is to deal with it. Even if the brass thinks it will hurt the armed forces, do the smart thing and keep your mouths shut. The country doesn't need the political upheavel and the reality is it is coming whether the brass likes it or not. Take the advice of the greatest General of all time, GEN Robert Knight!

I see DADT as far different from gay marriage. I can respect some of the arguments against gay marriage. I just can't see any argument for DADT other than good old-fashioned homophobia. You are a former military guy. Maybe you can enlighten me.

I read this article this morning:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...-repealed.html

Sounds like many of the top brass in the military are ready to make the change. I liked this quote:

"No matter how I look at the issue," Mullen said, "I cannot escape being troubled by the fact that we have in place a policy which forces young men and women to lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens." Noting that he was speaking for himself and not for the other service chiefs, Mullen added: "For me, it comes down to integrity — theirs as individuals and ours as an institution."

[Jacob]

"lie about who they are."

I never cared for this way of putting it. Gay is not "who you are" it's what you do.
Flame away.

[Goatnapper'96]

I see DADT as far different from gay marriage. I can respect some of the arguments against gay marriage. I just can't see any argument for DADT other than good old-fashioned homophobia. You are a former military guy. Maybe you can enlighten me.

I read this article this morning:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...-repealed.html

Sounds like many of the top brass in the military are ready to make the change. I liked this quote:

I think the concern from military brass is that the soldiers in the service are not real ready for there to be openly gay soldiers in the ranks. I think the perspective they have is that while this is clearly discriminatory the reality is what these people do, namely killing people and wrecking things (ever put your life in another man's hands and he asked you to protect his?), mandates placing discipline and esprit de corps as a top priority. If ending DADT has the potential of disrupting that discipline then it might not be worth it. I haven't been in the military for a decade and I think things have probably changed a lot since I was in, but DADT was not wickedly popular then. The service, especially the combat units, was a definite old fashioned institution.

My opinion is that there will be issues for a few years, but in time it will become accepted.

[RobinFinderson]

My opinion is that there will be issues for a few years, but in time it will become accepted.

It will eventually be accepted the way it is already accepted in most every other modern military force... unless Americans really are more deeply homophobic than anyone else on the planet.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think the concern from military brass is that the soldiers in the service are not real ready for there to be openly gay soldiers in the ranks. I think the perspective they have is that while this is clearly discriminatory the reality is what these people do, namely killing people and wrecking things (ever put your life in another man's hands and he asked you to protect his?), mandates placing discipline and esprit de corps as a top priority. If ending DADT has the potential of disrupting that discipline then it might not be worth it. I haven't been in the military for a decade and I think things have probably changed a lot since I was in, but DADT was not wickedly popular then. The service, especially the combat units, was a definite old fashioned institution.

My opinion is that there will be issues for a few years, but in time it will become accepted.

Interesting. Sounds quite similar to the arguments that were used against ending segregation in the military.

[woot]

"lie about who they are."

I never cared for this way of putting it. Gay is not "who you are" it's what you do.
Flame away.

You're wrong, unless you have the same strange way of defining heterosexuality as well.

Sexual attraction doesn't seem to be a behavior, but rather the result of complex physiological processes. It is therefore part of who one is as a person.

[Goatnapper'96]

It will eventually be accepted the way it is already accepted in most every other modern military force... unless Americans really are more deeply homophobic than anyone else on the planet.

LOL! Robin, our military force is different than most others. Fundamentally, ours is a complete volunteer entity with far more career opportunities. As such it develops its own culture that is more independent of the country's culture than other "modern military forces." However, the kids joining the military still come from American culture. In time gays in the service will be accepted because American culture is changing to view it as discriminatory. That is what is changing. What the frenchies or wops do in their ragtag glorified boy scouts they call a "modern military force" is going to influence the US armed forces significantly less than the changing opinions of the young kids enlisting or being commissioned. But the service will lag behind because it, internally, is very much a gereontocracy where the perspective of the leadership is shaped the most by their experiences within the service moreso than their experiences with those outside the service.

But think of how much popular we will be throughout the world, that is important shit to me! There is no doubt IMO that President Obama will now get the Pakistanis to make a serious effort against the Taliban and the Jews will now sit down in an open forum of engagement to discuss following through on their promises wrt to their settlements outside of Israel. This is the new "invisible hand" that will cure all of the world's ills!