Haiti a US Commonwealth?

[frank ryan]

The US occupied Haiti from 1915 until the lead up the WW2. Not entirely sure why.

[myboynoah]

The US occupied Haiti from 1915 until the lead up the WW2. Not entirely sure why.

Apparently so we could take all their money. We've been trying to give it back with 1,000 percent interest since then.

[Hallelujah]

If Haiti were to ask to be a US Commonwealth like Guam, Samoa, and Puerto Rico, how would/should/could Washington respond to that request?

I'm in favor of it, if it's what the majority of Haitians want. It'd be interesting. I doubt there's few people alive who remember the last time we added territory to the USA.

Allow them to become a commonwealth......if that's what the majority of Haitians want? Why should we CARE what the haitians want? It's our country last time I checked.

[falafel]

Allow them to become a commonwealth......if that's what the majority of Haitians want? Why should we CARE what the haitians want? It's our country last time I checked.

He's merely saying that, assuming our government had already given the okay, Haiti's people should be given the chance to approve or reject the idea. Not that we should do whatever they want us to do.

[Hallelujah]

He's merely saying that, assuming our government had already given the okay, Haiti's people should be given the chance to approve or reject the idea. Not that we should do whatever they want us to do.

What he was saying, if haiti came to the US..........

"If Haiti were to ask to be a US Commonwealth "

[grapevine]

We did not cause any bloodshed there. It is blood on there hands. Americans made territory were there were large numbers of americans thus by americanization.

We bought Alaska from Russia for a bargain. Hawaii Americans dominated settling there. And King Noah apologized for what we did 100 years ago. Apologize for making there lives better? What even native Hawaiin would want to live like there Polynesian cousins in other Independent countries such as fiji or Tonga. Why does the US Australia and New Zealand have large contints of Polynesians? They want the blessings of this land. Is there a mass migration from Hawaii right now of natives?

Haitis blood is on Haitis hands. And if we are an imperialist nation why haven't we annexed all of Canade. That would be real easy to do.

Territories have been aquired were there was american interst and americans already living there. Though few mainlanders I think live in our present territories of Samoa, Guam Puerto Rico and the Pacific Islands.

In another thread I said the quality of life is much better in Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands than it is in Haiti. And they are US Possesions. It is Haitis fault they are the way they are not the US's.

[falafel]

What he was saying, if haiti came to the US..........

"If Haiti were to ask to be a US Commonwealth "

U.S. pre-approval of the deal is implied.

[FMCoug]

I often wonder what the economics of things like this would look like. Would the economic development that could take place in a stable Haiti offset the cost of it being a commonwealth? Not to mention the cost of having to be the world cops there every 10 years or so?

I don't disagree with wuap's "it's the right thing to do" thought either ... but I wonder if this kind of thing could be made economically viable? Does the U.S. lose money on Guam, Puerto Rico, etc.?

[I.J. Reilly]

On Thursday, David Brooks published a column that characterized the tragedy in Haiti as a story of poverty. He used the Bay-area quake of a 7.0 magnitude where 63 people died to contrast against the 7.0 in Haiti that just happened and will probably claim 100,000+ when everything is said and done. In the column he lays out four things he sees to be truths about the U.S.'s approach to global poverty:

1. We don't know how to use aid to reduce poverty.
2. Micro-aid is vital but insufficient.
3. Culture's role in poverty should not be ignored.
4. Locally led paternalism should be promoted.

I have contemplated that column in relation to the question you posed with this thread for a little bit now and wonder if the incorporation of Haiti into the US would best address the problems that Brooks outlines. Of course, I have my reservations about the conclusions Brooks comes to and would encourage those that are curious to read his column. That being said, assuming that all four of Brook's conclusions are true, would adopting Haiti as a state be the best route in overcoming these four hurdles in our attempt to reduce poverty?

The US's record of nation building is at best shaky, and could certainly be characterized in worse terms. For every Japan there is a Lyberia, Nicaragua, Somolia, or the Philippines. However, the record of the US in incorporating geographic areas as territories of the US seems to be much better. In comparing the GDP of US territories to their neighbors, the territories ultimately fare better, often by a wide margin. For example:

American Samoa: GDP Per Capita: $7,400; CIA Factbook Ranking: 69
Samoa (Western Samoa): GDP: 2,500; CIA Factbook Ranking: 119

Guam: GDP Per Capita: 17,500; CIA Factbook Ranking: 41
Micronesia: GDP: 2,200; CIA Factbook Ranking: 121

Puerto Rico: GDP: 22,300; Factbook Ranking: 36
Dominican Republic: GDP: 4,800; Factbook: 91

I am too lazy to do a historical comparison to see if their position has raised over time, but my guess is that since being attached to the US their positions have risen. Does merely adopting the market structures of the US do the same thing? I think that the experience of the countries that have obtained money from the IMF and World Bank would suggest that adopting "free market" policies is insufficient and may even hinder growth. What about law structures similar to the US or western world? Constitutional democracies have been tough to sell recently, especially in countries that have preexisting, strong internal divisions, i.e. Iraq or Afghanistan.

If not the market or the laws, is it the culture? This seems to get us a little closer, although encouraging cultural adaption doesn't seem to be something that we know how to do with consistency, and "cultural imperialism" has been met with hisses and bywords for a couple of decades now.

In the end, I don't think that anyone knows a sure-fire formula for strengthening a nation through a heavy, foreign hand. Adoption, though, seems to have an overall net positive effect. In the beginning, it would probably be a large cost to the US, but my guess is that it wouldn't be too long before Haiti would no longer be a drain and would begin to add economically. Haiti, I'm sure, would benefit in terms of economics, infrastructure, and politics from being included in the US, but would it be worth the loss it would sustain to its individuality?

[wuapinmon]

Haiti, I'm sure, would benefit in terms of economics, infrastructure, and politics from being included in the US, but would it be worth the loss it would sustain to its individuality?

This is the compelling and important question. There will be many who will say "no." I contrast this need to maintain culture against the need to maintain life. I'd say that this is so thorny that it'll never happen, but I still think there's something to the notion of uniting the Americas into one nation. Fractional partisan warring Europe did it.

[RobinFinderson]

On Thursday, David Brooks published a column that characterized the tragedy in Haiti as a story of poverty.

Matt Taibbi responds to the Brooks piece.

[wuapinmon]

Matt Taibbi responds to the Brooks piece.

Taibbi is a genius of the first order. I hate his writing though, not because he's a genius and I'm jealous, but because he pisses away his genius writing stuff like that, which, while full of truth, loses me in the scathing code in which he broadcasts his message. I liken his style to what Lennon sang in "Revolution," "If you go carrying picture of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow."

Stuff like this sours me on the man:

TRANSLATION: Although it is true that Haiti was just like five minutes ago a victim of a random earthquake that killed tens of thousands of people, I’m going to skip right past the fake mourning period and point out that Haitians are a bunch of lazy niggers who can’t keep their dongs in their pants and probably wouldn’t be pancaked under fifty tons of rubble if they had spent a little more time over the years listening to the clarion call of white progress, and learning to use a freaking T-square, instead of singing and dancing and dabbling in not-entirely-Christian religions and making babies all the fucking time. I know I’m supposed to respect other cultures and keep my mouth shut about this stuff, but my penis is only four and a third inches long when fully engorged and so I’m kind of at the end of my patience just generally, especially when it comes to “progress-resistant” cultures.

I'm serious though, Taibbi is one of the most brilliant writers in America, and he knows a lot about a lot, but I canceled my Rolling Stone subscription because of him.

[I.J. Reilly]

Matt Taibbi responds to the Brooks piece.

Like I said, I have my reservations about Brooks conclusions.

Taibbi has a knack for using hyperbole and overly strong metaphor to make his point and, oftentimes, to cover up flaws in his writing. Those elements often turn off readers to his valid criticisms. His critique of Brooks' column is no exception to this.

While Brooks' conclusions about our approach to global poverty are debatable, the ultimate premise, that the US's (and developed world overall, for that matter) ability to improve other countries through a foreign aid system has, in the very least, an uneven track record, is not very debatable.

[Goatnapper'96]

If Haiti were to ask to be a US Commonwealth like Guam, Samoa, and Puerto Rico, how would/should/could Washington respond to that request?

I'm in favor of it, if it's what the majority of Haitians want. It'd be interesting. I doubt there's few people alive who remember the last time we added territory to the USA.

I was a platoon leader in the 2nd Cavalry Regiment in 1997. About a year earlier my unit had just returned from Haiti. Part of their duties were to go to schools and teach people how to wipe their ass after they defecated.

I am not sure why we went in to Haiti to restore democracy, but from a cultural perspective the jump from mastering wiping one's ass to grasping checks and balances seems pretty damn big. It seems to me that such a move, the one you propose, is about the only legitimate option for those people's grandkids. However, the only thing the US gets out of it is peace of conscience for academic types interested in the history of a people who forgot how to wipe their own asses. I have watched my countrymen over the years and in the end they don't have the patience or attention span to want to see such a thing through especially once they are removed from it emotionally and begin to see the cost adding up.

My prediction is a cycle of us going in to restore democracy and reteach them how to wipe their own asses. It will make us feel better when we need it and in the long run being concerned about Haitians once a decade is all we can afford. My only hope is that every time we do something it offends the french!

[RobinFinderson]

I was a platoon leader in the 2nd Cavalry Regiment in 1997. About a year earlier my unit had just returned from Haiti. Part of their duties were to go to schools and teach people how to wipe their ass after they defecated.

I am not sure why we went in to Haiti to restore democracy, but from a cultural perspective the jump from mastering wiping one's ass to grasping checks and balances seems pretty damn big. It seems to me that such a move, the one you propose, is about the only legitimate option for those people's grandkids. However, the only thing the US gets out of it is peace of conscience for academic types interested in the history of a people who forgot how to wipe their own asses. I have watched my countrymen over the years and in the end they don't have the patience or attention span to want to see such a thing through especially once they are removed from it emotionally and begin to see the cost adding up.

My prediction is a cycle of us going in to restore democracy and reteach them how to wipe their own asses. It will make us feel better when we need it and in the long run being concerned about Haitians once a decade is all we can afford. My only hope is that every time we do something it offends the french!

I think the Japanese should send a bunch of soldiers over the the US to teach us how to wash our asses using robot bidets. That would be an awesome sight, Japanese soldiers strapped with AK's standing in front of American children trying to demonstrate how to use a Toto Washlet.