Swiss Healthcare System: A Model for the US?

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  • LA Ute
    Receiver of Memory
    • Nov 2008
    • 19512

    #1

    Swiss Healthcare System: A Model for the US?

    I think I could live with this system:

    1. There is an insurance mandate for all individuals. Meaning: Everyone is required by law to have health insurance, and it it not provided by employers. This is a compromise between two warring positions: Libertarians hate the "individual mandate," and so do most conservatives. But liberals hate the idea of ending employer-based health insurance.

    I think this kind of compromise might be the price we have to pay for a system that works. Regina Herzlinger, a Harvard Business School professor, has studied and written about the U.S. health care system and other countries' systems for some time:
    To revamp the US system, Herzlinger argues that Americans should be required to buy their own insurance, as in Switzerland, instead of having employers purchase it for them.

    "When people buy their own health insurance with their own money they think about value," Herzlinger said. "I don't want someone else to buy my car, my house, my food or my clothes, so why do I let them buy my health insurance?"

    What about people who can't pay for their own insurance? (Yes, they have poor people in Switzerland too.)
    In Switzerland, about one-third of the Swiss population cannot afford insurance. The Swiss government provides help on a sliding scale with about SFr4 billion a year.

    I don't think people really understand just how profound that is," Herzlinger said. "Poor people become dignified consumers. This is what makes Switzerland so unique."

    2. The government defines a what the insurance benefit will be for all standard health insurers. Another intervention in the market that is hard for conservatives to swallow.

    3. Insurance companies are not allowed to deny coverage to any individual. No "pre-existing conditions."

    4. Health insurance and medical procedure prices are made publicly available. Now we're talking more free enterprise. Do you have any idea what a procedure costs in the U.S.?

    5. In exchange for providing health insurance to consumers, insurance companies receive premiums from consumers and risk-adjustment payments from the government in order that insurance companies are not punished if they decide to insure a sicker population. This is how they compensate for making insurance companies take everyone, regardless of pre-existing condition:
    [A]n insurance company could go broke if it had too many chronically ill clients and no healthy ones.

    For Swiss companies, it makes little difference if you're a beacon of fitness or in need a heart transplant. A joint foundation overseen by government regulators redistributes high profits earned off healthy clients and divides them among companies with expensive, unhealthy ones.

    6. Premiums are community rated, meaning that sick and healthy individuals pay the same price within each age group (the age groupings are 0-18, 19-25, >25 years old). More intervention in the market, but if you have elements 1-3 above you really have to do this too.

    7. Individuals are allowed to purchase supplement insurance as well (there is no regulated benefit for supplemental insurance). This is how they keep it from being "one size fits all." I like this provision a lot, and it really saves the entire system, in my view.

    8. There is significant cost sharing in all insurance plans (i.e.: deductibles, 10% coinsurance rates up to an annual ceiling). This is the individual responsibility piece that is missing from most current American proposals.

    9. Open enrollment occurs twice per year (June and December). This means twice a year you can switch insurance plans, and it means the insurance companies are competing actively all the time.

    How do the Swiss people use this system?
    In 2003, 49.7% of Swiss individuals choose ordinary deductible health insurance, 42.0% choose higher deductible health insurance, and 8.2% chose insurance with limited choice of provider networks (HMO-style contracts). Since only 8% of individuals are in managed care insurance firms, quality is fairly homogeneous across insurance companies.

    And does the system produce competition for the consumer's business? This is where the Swiss system gets really interesting:
    [H]igh consumer demand has created 87 private Swiss health insurance companies that offer an enormous menu of services. In Massachusetts, a state about the same size as Switzerland, there are five such companies.

    A Swiss model for the USA might even be great for us. No, it doesn't follow free market principles strictly, but that's not possible with healthcare -- or, at least, in the USA we've made a (proper and humane) decision as a society that we will not let the market alone decide whether people get medical care. Switzerland has made the same decision, but has insisted on competition among insurance companies, individual involvement in choosing insurance, and transparency of cost -- all core free-market principles.

    I'd like to see more thinking along these lines instead of the clunky socialized medicine ideas the Democrats are coming up with. They seem to be asking, "How can we copy the British National Health Service without going all the way to a single-payer system?" Not a very creative approach.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-25-2009, 06:52 AM.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • ERCougar
    Junior Member
    • Nov 2008
    • 10978

    #2
    The Swiss came up with this at the same time the US completely failed in their healthcare reform efforts--1993. At the time, their concern wasn't cost--it was the fact that 5% of their population was uninsured and their sense of community couldn't bear that.

    This info courtesy of a recent Radiowest podcast on health care reform. Fabrizio interviewed the author of this book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Americ.../dp/1594202346

    I think he helped make a documentary as well, but I can't remember the name of that. It was an excellent interview for you podcasters out there--very well-balanced look at things. I think his documentary would be interesting.

    EDIT: It looks like the documentary was actually a Frontline piece:
    Can the U.S. learn anything from the rest of the world about how to run a health care system?
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

    Comment

    • ERCougar
      Junior Member
      • Nov 2008
      • 10978

      #3
      LA, this doesn't seem far off of the main principles that the president has espoused, with the exception of the "public option", which I think is dead anyway. Or am I misreading things? I think it seems "clunky" at this point because we don't have an actual bill.
      At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
      -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

      Comment

      • LA Ute
        Receiver of Memory
        • Nov 2008
        • 19512

        #4
        Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
        LA, this doesn't seem far off of the main principles that the president has espoused, with the exception of the "public option", which I think is dead anyway. Or am I misreading things? I think it seems "clunky" at this point because we don't have an actual bill.
        It's a lot more like the Wyden-Bennett bill, which includes things both sides of the ideological debate hate. The president would not want:
        • The end of employer-based insurance. The unions insist on that because it gives them power, in the form of a benefit they can deliver to their members.

        • Individual choice in insurance options. In California the liberal members of the legislature resist creating options for Medicaid because they don't think poor people can make those decisions on their own. With open enrollment twice a year and a bazillion insurance companies competing, there would be many choices for everyone.

        • The ability to supplement the basic benefit with your own money. Democrats don't like this. I am not sure what the Baucus plan or HR 320 say about this idea, if anything.
        “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
        ― W.H. Auden


        "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
        -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


        "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
        --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

        Comment

        • Indy Coug
          Heartless Bastard
          • Dec 2008
          • 18747

          #5
          I think the Swiss system has some very interesting ideas and is certainly a lot closer to what we SHOULD be doing than what is getting kicked around in Washington by the Obama Administration.
          Everything in life is an approximation.

          http://twitter.com/CougarStats

          Comment

          • ERCougar
            Junior Member
            • Nov 2008
            • 10978

            #6
            Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
            It's a lot more like the Wyden-Bennett bill, which includes things both sides of the ideological debate hate. The president would not want:
            • The end of employer-based insurance. The unions insist on that because it gives them power, in the form of a benefit they can deliver to their members.
            I wasn't aware (and am still not sure) that employers in Switzerland are not allowed to provide insurance. I could be wrong on this. In any case, employer-based insurance is on its way out and there's nothing that Obama is doing to keep it here (other than not taxing it--which is ridiculous. Why does my health insurance premium come out of after-tax dollars just because I am self-employed? grr....).

            I don't know what to comment on your other two points.
            At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
            -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

            Comment

            • LA Ute
              Receiver of Memory
              • Nov 2008
              • 19512

              #7
              Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
              I wasn't aware (and am still not sure) that employers in Switzerland are not allowed to provide insurance. I could be wrong on this. In any case, employer-based insurance is on its way out and there's nothing that Obama is doing to keep it here (other than not taxing it--which is ridiculous. Why does my health insurance premium come out of after-tax dollars just because I am self-employed? grr....).
              I'm no expert but it seems that individuals choosing their own insurance is the key to the Swiss system. I don't think the Swiss are limited to plans their employers make available to them. In that way their system is a lot like the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan. Federal employees get a voucher for a certain amount each year, and they can direct the money to whatever health insurance plan they want. If they wish, they can supplement the voucher and buy a more expensive plan. I've always found it interesting that Congress gets that kind of freedom but can't seem to bring themselves to offer it to the rest of the country.

              One of the ideas floating around Washington is to allow self-employed people like you (and me) to deduct the cost of health insurance premiums from their taxes. I think it's a Republican idea but I am not sure. It is in the bipartisan Wyden-Bennett bill.
              “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
              ― W.H. Auden


              "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
              -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


              "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
              --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

              Comment

              • ERCougar
                Junior Member
                • Nov 2008
                • 10978

                #8
                Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                I'm no expert but it seems that individuals choosing their own insurance is the key to the Swiss system. I don't think the Swiss are limited to plans their employers make available to them. In that way their system is a lot like the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan. Federal employees get a voucher for a certain amount each year, and they can direct the money to whatever health insurance plan they want. If they wish, they can supplement the voucher and buy a more expensive plan. I've always found it interesting that Congress gets that kind of freedom but can't seem to bring themselves to offer it to the rest of the country.

                One of the ideas floating around Washington is to allow self-employed people like you (and me) to deduct the cost of health insurance premiums from their taxes. I think it's a Republican idea but I am not sure. It is in the bipartisan Wyden-Bennett bill.
                I think that you're right in that the employer doesn't choose the healthplan, but I'm pretty sure that they can (and often do) pay part of the premium for the employee. I'm going off memory here and may be mixing this up with the German model. Either way, I don't see anything in Obama's plan that prevents this from happening and I imagine the market would push towards this end, as our companies are tired of competing with foreign ones that don't have to provide health insurance. The day of cushy benefit plans is nearly over.
                At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                Comment

                • happyone
                  Board Bookworm
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 5389

                  #9
                  Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                  I'm no expert but it seems that individuals choosing their own insurance is the key to the Swiss system. I don't think the Swiss are limited to plans their employers make available to them. In that way their system is a lot like the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan. Federal employees get a voucher for a certain amount each year, and they can direct the money to whatever health insurance plan they want. If they wish, they can supplement the voucher and buy a more expensive plan. I've always found it interesting that Congress gets that kind of freedom but can't seem to bring themselves to offer it to the rest of the country.

                  One of the ideas floating around Washington is to allow self-employed people like you (and me) to deduct the cost of health insurance premiums from their taxes. I think it's a Republican idea but I am not sure. It is in the bipartisan Wyden-Bennett bill.
                  Actually we don't get a voucher. We get to select for a list of options during an open season, December, and it is a payroll deduction. Last year the cost to the employee of the various plans ranged from about $125 per period to appox $350 per pay period. ( I didn't keep the Open Season broucher from last year and the one for this year haven't been distributed yet) Obviously that doesn't include copays and deductables. The medical plans don't include dental or vision, you get that seperately . I understand the gov't covers 80% of the premium for medical and none for dental or vision.

                  In Utah I had a choice of about 12 different medical plans and 4 each for dental and vision.

                  Personally from what I read, the Swiss plan looks very promising.

                  I may be small, but I'm slow.

                  A veteran - whether active duty, retired, or national guard or reserve is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to, "The United States of America ", for an amount of "up to and including my life - it's an honor."

                  Comment

                  • Goatnapper'96
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 10920

                    #10
                    Has the Bennett-Wyden bill even made it to a Committee vote yet?
                    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
                    -General George S. Patton

                    I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
                    -DOCTOR Wuap

                    Comment

                    • LA Ute
                      Receiver of Memory
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 19512

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
                      Has the Bennett-Wyden bill even made it to a Committee vote yet?
                      Nope. It's on the sidelines. The White House health care czarina, Nancy Ann De Parle, did tell Wyden and Bennett the president liked their bill, but said they needed to add the "public option" before the White House would get behind it. They refused.

                      No one's talking about the Swiss model, either. All that's on the table is a huge, clunky bureaucratic nightmare designed to appeal to various special interests. Our choices will not improve (they'll probably get worse), quality will not improve, and it's going to cost an astonishing amount.
                      “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                      ― W.H. Auden


                      "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                      -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                      "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                      --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                      Comment

                      • Indy Coug
                        Heartless Bastard
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 18747

                        #12
                        They need a bunch of actuaries in the White House so they can finally fix the healthcare and social security messes. These yahoos can't find their asses with two hands and a spotter.
                        Everything in life is an approximation.

                        http://twitter.com/CougarStats

                        Comment

                        • statman
                          Rabblerouser
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 2799

                          #13
                          I think our adoptation of a similar system is inevitable. The Clinton plan (1993) was terrible. The Obama plan is worse. This system seems to be fairly close to what Mitt got done as governor of MA - mandatory coverage for everyone, sliding-scale assistance for those who can't afford it, etc.

                          the one thing I didn't see (or missed?) in your summarization - is the actual out-of-pocket cost adjusted for income - other than the assistance for those who can't afford it?

                          One of the kickers of why I chose not to move to Germany a few years back was because of the 'fairness' of their health care system. Cost of coverage there is based on 'ability to pay' - it's almost free for a huge portion of the population, and incredibly expensive for about the top 15% of wage earners. I was going to be losing about $800 a month to additional health care costs (premiums) - and my benefits here aren't particularly cheap.

                          Comment

                          • LA Ute
                            Receiver of Memory
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 19512

                            #14
                            Originally posted by statman View Post
                            the one thing I didn't see (or missed?) in your summarization - is the actual out-of-pocket cost adjusted for income - other than the assistance for those who can't afford it?
                            I don't know the answer. There's this:
                            Americans currently spend more than any other country on health care, about 16 per cent of gross domestic product – the same as the economic output of France. Switzerland spends 11 per cent of its GDP on health care, second only to the US.

                            But whereas nearly 50 million people in the US have no health insurance at all, the Swiss have quality, universal coverage, while spending 40 per cent less than Americans, a savings of $1 trillion

                            So it's not a cheap system, but it seems to get a lot more done (universal coverage). That alone would have a huge impact on the country.

                            Then there's this, from Uwe Reinhardt:
                            According to the 2004 OECD database, out-of-pocket payments by households constituted 31.5% (PPP $1085) of total Swiss national health spending in 2002. The comparable US figure is only 14.0% (PPP $737), which may have caused much of the higher US spending in that year. That simplistic theory, however, is at variance with OECD data for other countries. In 2002, for example, out-of-pocket spending in Canada was only 15.2% of total health spending (PPP $445), yet per capita health spending in Canada was only 85% of the comparable Swiss spending level. Out-of-pocket spending in Germany was an even lower 10.4% of total health spending in 2002 (PPP $292), yet per capita health spending in Germany was only 81% of the Swiss figure. The comparable data for the Netherlands were out-of-pocket spending of 10.1% of total health spending (PPP $266) but per capita health spending of only 77% of the Swiss level.

                            Furthermore, in spite of the relatively much higher outofpocket spending in Switzerland, that country actually uses more physicians, nurses, hospital beds, hospital days, magnetic resonance imaging and computed tomography scanners, lithotriptors, radiation equipment, and other real resource inputs per capita than does the United States. If, with this higher real-resource use, total health spending per capita in Switzerland still is 35% lower than that in the United States, it must be chiefly Switzerland’s much lower prices per unit of real health care resource that drive Swiss health spending to its relatively much lower level. As the authors of a recent study of health spending in the United States and in other OECD countries concluded, “It’s the prices, stupid.”

                            There's a lot more number-crunching to do here than I am equipped to handle! It is complex stuff.
                            “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                            ― W.H. Auden


                            "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                            -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                            "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                            --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                            Comment

                            • BlueHair
                              Boom Bitches!!!
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 2894

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                              They need a bunch of actuaries in the White House so they can finally fix the healthcare and social security messes. These yahoos can't find their asses with two hands and a spotter.
                              Yes they do. Maybe they should hire an actuary to figure how many actuaries it would take to get it right.
                              Just try it once. One beer or one cigarette or one porno movie won't hurt. - Dallin H. Oaks

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