Marathon Training Thread

[Pheidippides]

Weather looks to be decent enough, although not quite as cool as we'd hoped a week ago. Shouldn't be a major factor though, it looks like, unless you're out for five or six hours.

I am a complete mess today. Glad I am taking the next two days off.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

Weather looks to be decent enough, although not quite as cool as we'd hoped a week ago. Shouldn't be a major factor though, it looks like, unless you're out for five or six hours.

I am a complete mess today. Glad I am taking the next two days off.

So this is your second reference to not doing well this week. Are these references to your current state of nerves or are you having some set backs with your body?

This morning was my last run before Saturday. 5 miles with 3 miles of tempo work. The tempo was slower than what I've been asked to do the last few weeks, and despite trying hard to constantly remind myself to slow down, the pace of my 3 miles were about 25 seconds faster than my target. But my breathing was pretty easy so I didn't worry about it too much. Hopefully I don't regret anything on Saturday.

My body could be feeling a little better going into things. On Saturday our group ran a 10 mile out and back. The out was up the canyon with about 750 ft of elevation gain and I think I'm having a little knee stiffness lingering from that. I've done something to my back and I wake up each morning very tight but fortunately, it doesn't seem to have a noticeable effect on my runs. I woke up yesterday morning and took a stretch in bed and just about had my calf lock up on me. I can't think of a worse thing to have happen. I plan on eating several bananas today and tomorrow.

At this point, I just can't wait to get to the starting line so that I don't have to think about all this stuff any more. Good luck everyone!

[Pheidippides]

So this is your second reference to not doing well this week. Are these references to your current state of nerves or are you having some set backs with your body?

This morning was my last run before Saturday. 5 miles with 3 miles of tempo work. The tempo was slower than what I've been asked to do the last few weeks, and despite trying hard to constantly remind myself to slow down, the pace of my 3 miles were about 25 seconds faster than my target. But my breathing was pretty easy so I didn't worry about it too much. Hopefully I don't regret anything on Saturday.

My body could be feeling a little better going into things. On Saturday our group ran a 10 mile out and back. The out was up the canyon with about 750 ft of elevation gain and I think I'm having a little knee stiffness lingering from that. I've done something to my back and I wake up each morning very tight but fortunately, it doesn't seem to have a noticeable effect on my runs. I woke up yesterday morning and took a stretch in bed and just about had my calf lock up on me. I can't think of a worse thing to have happen. I plan on eating several bananas today and tomorrow.

At this point, I just can't wait to get to the starting line so that I don't have to think about all this stuff any more. Good luck everyone!

Nerves. All nerves. I'm used to this the day before, but it's a new experience to have it the week before.

[ERCougar]

Ok...so I'm a glutton for punishment. I'm doing this again.

The goal here is Boston. If I just have to outlast the tables, so be it, but ideally, I'd like to do it right after my 40th birthday (May 2014) when my BQ time slows down to 3:15. Utah Valley Marathon is in June, it's a pretty fast downhill course (although not St G fast), and they give cool shirts to BQ finishers, so June 2014. That seems like a crazy stretch right now, considering my marathon experience to this point, but my 1/2M isn't all that far off, so I'm holding on to a little hope.

Question is--how? I'm open to any input from CUFers and their spouses (Piney and Cardiac, talking to you)

My current training regimen is 3 running days a week:
-A track workout that I vary around a little bit, but on average is 6 x 800's where I get pretty close to my HR max (182ish) on each repeat. My 800 pace is about 6:20.
-A tempo workout of 8-10 miles, where I run the first half in the low 150's, second half in upper 150's, push it on the last mile. This is usually a hilly course (up Cedar Canyon) and pace is around 8:00, depending on heat.
-A long run where I run the first half in the 140's, second half low 150's, and if I feel good at the 3/4 point, push up to high 150's.

I cross train (usually cycling or mountain biking) at least two days a week and never do two running workouts in a row. I've liked this regimen--it's kept me completely injury-free (even on my crappy marathons) for 5 years and I've lowered my PRs every year. But I'm wondering if it works better for all the other distances and not so well for a marathon. I maxed out at about 35 miles in a week, really low for marathons. But I wonder--is adding junk miles really that helpful?

I'm willing to give a more traditional higher mileage plan a try, and specifically, I'm looking at giving Higdon's Advanced 2 a shot. I'm not willing to do this much running in the summer, but in the winter, riding is limited to either the trainer (which I hate) or the occasional mountain bike trip in St George, which I'll just substitute for one of the easy run days once in a while. Anyone had experience with this one before? I chose it because in perusing different boards, Higdon's plans have this reputation of being low on miles (ha!), so I figured I should try the higher end of this. Also, if I decide it's too much, I can always step down to a lower mileage one.

For my race, I'm eyeing the Phoenix Marathon on March 2, so training starts in earnest at the end of the month, so I have a few weeks to figure out how I'm going to do this. Thanks for indulging me. Any other advice?

[bluegoose]

Ok...so I'm a glutton for punishment. I'm doing this again.

The goal here is Boston. If I just have to outlast the tables, so be it, but ideally, I'd like to do it right after my 40th birthday (May 2014) when my BQ time slows down to 3:15. Utah Valley Marathon is in June, it's a pretty fast downhill course (although not St G fast), and they give cool shirts to BQ finishers, so June 2014. That seems like a crazy stretch right now, considering my marathon experience to this point, but my 1/2M isn't all that far off, so I'm holding on to a little hope.

Question is--how? I'm open to any input from CUFers and their spouses (Piney and Cardiac, talking to you)

My current training regimen is 3 running days a week:
-A track workout that I vary around a little bit, but on average is 6 x 800's where I get pretty close to my HR max (182ish) on each repeat. My 800 pace is about 6:20.
-A tempo workout of 8-10 miles, where I run the first half in the low 150's, second half in upper 150's, push it on the last mile. This is usually a hilly course (up Cedar Canyon) and pace is around 8:00, depending on heat.
-A long run where I run the first half in the 140's, second half low 150's, and if I feel good at the 3/4 point, push up to high 150's.

I cross train (usually cycling or mountain biking) at least two days a week and never do two running workouts in a row. I've liked this regimen--it's kept me completely injury-free (even on my crappy marathons) for 5 years and I've lowered my PRs every year. But I'm wondering if it works better for all the other distances and not so well for a marathon. I maxed out at about 35 miles in a week, really low for marathons. But I wonder--is adding junk miles really that helpful?

I'm willing to give a more traditional higher mileage plan a try, and specifically, I'm looking at giving Higdon's Advanced 2 a shot. I'm not willing to do this much running in the summer, but in the winter, riding is limited to either the trainer (which I hate) or the occasional mountain bike trip in St George, which I'll just substitute for one of the easy run days once in a while. Anyone had experience with this one before? I chose it because in perusing different boards, Higdon's plans have this reputation of being low on miles (ha!), so I figured I should try the higher end of this. Also, if I decide it's too much, I can always step down to a lower mileage one.

For my race, I'm eyeing the Phoenix Marathon on March 2, so training starts in earnest at the end of the month, so I have a few weeks to figure out how I'm going to do this. Thanks for indulging me. Any other advice?

You can totally do it, from what I have seen.

A couple of thoughts.

I personally think your tempo runs need to be faster. An 8:00 pace for someone of your ability is too slow. Jack Daniels would tell you that you need to be probably close to a full minute faster. I can check his charts if you would like when I get home. I follow his training guidelines for someone shooting for a 3:30 marathon, and he says I need to be doing tempo work at about 7:24 pace. If this means shortening your tempo distance, I think ramping up the tempo pace would do wonders for you. I'm not fast by any means, but last winter when Steelblue and I were doing tempo runs, he would drag me along at about a 7:04 pace for 2-3 miles.

Second, Peter Sagal wrote an interesting article a few months ago about his attempt at a PR. I can't find the link the right now. From what I remember, he said he basically went from a 3-4 day per week runner, like you and I, to a 6 day per week runner. It took him several weeks and perhaps even a month or two, but the aches and pains of running daily eventually dissipated and his speed skyrocketed. I think he was following a custom runner's world program. I think he eventually ran something like a 3:10 when he was somewhere in his late 40's. And he looks nothing like the gazelles that I usually picture running that fast. He's fairly short and has stocky, stubby legs.

Or you could just follow my sister in law's and my father in law's running philosophy. Leave the watch at home, run an hour every day as fast as you can and run 20+ miles every weekend. Worked for them. My FIL ran a 3:04 doing this and my SIL ran a 3:23, both BQer times for them.

[ERCougar]

You can totally do it, from what I have seen.

A couple of thoughts.

I personally think your tempo runs need to be faster. An 8:00 pace for someone of your ability is too slow. Jack Daniels would tell you that you need to be probably close to a full minute faster. I can check his charts if you would like when I get home. I follow his training guidelines for someone shooting for a 3:30 marathon, and he says I need to be doing tempo work at about 7:24 pace. If this means shortening your tempo distance, I think ramping up the tempo pace would do wonders for you. I'm not fast by any means, but last winter when Steelblue and I were doing tempo runs, he would drag me along at about a 7:04 pace for 2-3 miles.

Second, Peter Sagal wrote an interesting article a few months ago about his attempt at a PR. I can't find the link the right now. From what I remember, he said he basically went from a 3-4 day per week runner, like you and I, to a 6 day per week runner. It took him several weeks and perhaps even a month or two, but the aches and pains of running daily eventually dissipated and his speed skyrocketed. I think he was following a custom runner's world program. I think he eventually ran something like a 3:10 when he was somewhere in his late 40's. And he looks nothing like the gazelles that I usually picture running that fast. He's fairly short and has stocky, stubby legs.

Or you could just follow my sister in law's and my father in law's running philosophy. Leave the watch at home, run an hour every day as fast as you can and run 20+ miles every weekend. Worked for them. My FIL ran a 3:04 doing this and my SIL ran a 3:23, both BQer times for them.

I agree with you on tempo runs, but this IS a really hilly course. I'd find something flatter, but I really really like that run. In cold weather, I can get my pace down in the 7:40s. Also, that's an average pace over the 8-10 miles, so I'm going faster at peak.

Thanks for the Peter Sagal link. I knew he was a runner because I'd read articles of his before, but I didn't know he was THAT fast. Here's the link: http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...4401-F,00.html
I suspect he's naturally a much better runner than I am, but that article is definitely encouraging.

I love the simplicity of your in laws' program. I do wonder if we overthink these things.

[Pheidippides]

I agree with you on tempo runs, but this IS a really hilly course. I'd find something flatter, but I really really like that run. In cold weather, I can get my pace down in the 7:40s. Also, that's an average pace over the 8-10 miles, so I'm going faster at peak.

Thanks for the Peter Sagal link. I knew he was a runner because I'd read articles of his before, but I didn't know he was THAT fast. Here's the link: http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...4401-F,00.html
I suspect he's naturally a much better runner than I am, but that article is definitely encouraging.

I love the simplicity of your in laws' program. I do wonder if we overthink these things.

I already gave you most of my thoughts via PM but I think there's something to the extra miles. There's obviously a point of diminishing returns but 50 plus mile weeks made a huge difference.

I agree on the tempo run pace but I suck at tempo runs.

[bluegoose]

I agree with you on tempo runs, but this IS a really hilly course. I'd find something flatter, but I really really like that run. In cold weather, I can get my pace down in the 7:40s. Also, that's an average pace over the 8-10 miles, so I'm going faster at peak.

Thanks for the Peter Sagal link. I knew he was a runner because I'd read articles of his before, but I didn't know he was THAT fast. Here's the link: http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...4401-F,00.html
I suspect he's naturally a much better runner than I am, but that article is definitely encouraging.

I love the simplicity of your in laws' program. I do wonder if we overthink these things.

Ah, I missed the part about it being a hilly course.

While tempo runs are partially about exertion level, I think a bigger part of them is speed. Going faster than you are comfortable for a fairly longer interval. From what I have read, most coaches recommend a flat course for a tempo run, saving the more hilly routes for interval or fartlek runs.

As to your initially post this morning, I used the higdon intermediate 2 program for my PR and would do it again without hesitation. I haven't looked at the advanced 2 for awhile. I suspect it will be quite demanding, but would do wonders for your marathon times.

[ERCougar]

Ah, I missed the part about it being a hilly course.

While tempo runs are partially about exertion level, I think a bigger part of them is speed. Going faster than you are comfortable for a fairly longer interval. From what I have read, most coaches recommend a flat course for a tempo run, saving the more hilly routes for interval or fartlek runs.

As to your initially post this morning, I used the higdon intermediate 2 program for my PR and would do it again without hesitation. I haven't looked at the advanced 2 for awhile. I suspect it will be quite demanding, but would do wonders for your marathon times.

Yeah, I do think there's something to leg turnover speed. I get that a little bit because the second half is downhill and I'm usually low 7's/high 6's on speed. I'll have to think about picking a flat course though. I really like this trail and I'm not getting paid for this.

So I'm a little obsessed about this for the moment, but I had a slow shift last night and did a lot of reading on message boards. I'm pretty convinced I need to significantly increase my miles. Check this guy out, for example:
http://www.runnersworld.com/communit...unning-419-306
"Just run as much as you can...and don't worry too much about the pace" took him from a 4:19 to a 3:06. Later in the thread, he says he runs 70 miles/6 days a week and mostly just goes out and runs "easy"--sometimes that means 8 minute miles (still almost a minute/mile slower than 3:06 pace), sometimes 9:30's, I assume depending on how he's feeling. One of the responses says that this is how the pros have trained for years. I wonder how true that is.

What I liked about the Peter Sagal thread is the sense of control he felt. That's what I want, and what I've been missing on both marathons. On both, I felt like I was falling apart. I could have run an hour slower and I'm not sure I would have felt much better. For my first half, I was woefully undertrained and felt like garbage at the end. Now when I run halfs, I feel tired, but I also don't feel like it's out of my league. Marathons feel out of my league. Hopefully, more miles will help that.

[OhioBlue]

Yeah, I do think there's something to leg turnover speed. I get that a little bit because the second half is downhill and I'm usually low 7's/high 6's on speed. I'll have to think about picking a flat course though. I really like this trail and I'm not getting paid for this.

So I'm a little obsessed about this for the moment, but I had a slow shift last night and did a lot of reading on message boards. I'm pretty convinced I need to significantly increase my miles. Check this guy out, for example:
http://www.runnersworld.com/communit...unning-419-306
"Just run as much as you can...and don't worry too much about the pace" took him from a 4:19 to a 3:06. Later in the thread, he says he runs 70 miles/6 days a week and mostly just goes out and runs "easy"--sometimes that means 8 minute miles (still almost a minute/mile slower than 3:06 pace), sometimes 9:30's, I assume depending on how he's feeling. One of the responses says that this is how the pros have trained for years. I wonder how true that is.

What I liked about the Peter Sagal thread is the sense of control he felt. That's what I want, and what I've been missing on both marathons. On both, I felt like I was falling apart. I could have run an hour slower and I'm not sure I would have felt much better. For my first half, I was woefully undertrained and felt like garbage at the end. Now when I run halfs, I feel tired, but I also don't feel like it's out of my league. Marathons feel out of my league. Hopefully, more miles will help that.

I don't belong in this thread (as someone who hasn't and likely won't run a marathon) but I can personally relate to some pieces that I'm seeing here. I spent the last year battling MTSS and have only run 2.5 years, but I am noticing that some of my biggest time improvements have come after just running a bunch of 'easy' miles for several weeks. During those times the closest I'll come to speedwork is a set of strides here and there or maybe a fast mile during a long run. That's it. And by easy, I mean not-even-thinking-about-time-or-pace easy. Like HR in the 120s easy. Like I have no worries about running a good chunk of my miles at anything between 9-11 minute miles easy.

I've also found that for me at least, running more consistently seems to be better for my body. I guess my adaptation needs sometimes trump my recovery needs. My last 7 weeks or so I've made sure to run every day (well, 6 of 7 with a hike on Sunday mornings) and my mileage is currently around 32ish/wk; I plan to get up to around 40 or so and then work in some hills and then, a tempo run, and finally maybe to the track. Aches and pains are less, MTSS stuff is less (though I'm still trying to figure that out), and I'm faster, without running any harder. I maintained under 8 mins/mi on a recent Saturday run and it was surprisingly easy. When I was running tempos once/week a few months ago, they were usually around 7:05-7:15 pace, and I'll get back to those eventually, but for now I'll let the mileage and consistency buildup do its thing to help my body adapt and get stronger, and to help inch up my aerobic base.

Anyway, it seems there are a lot of methods that work for lots of folks, and that's sort of both the confusing and freeing thing of it all. The 'run less, run faster' thing might work for some, but for me the very opposite of that seems to be working far better. Good luck!

[Eddie]

Yeah, I do think there's something to leg turnover speed. I get that a little bit because the second half is downhill and I'm usually low 7's/high 6's on speed. I'll have to think about picking a flat course though. I really like this trail and I'm not getting paid for this.

So I'm a little obsessed about this for the moment, but I had a slow shift last night and did a lot of reading on message boards. I'm pretty convinced I need to significantly increase my miles. Check this guy out, for example:
http://www.runnersworld.com/communit...unning-419-306
"Just run as much as you can...and don't worry too much about the pace" took him from a 4:19 to a 3:06. Later in the thread, he says he runs 70 miles/6 days a week and mostly just goes out and runs "easy"--sometimes that means 8 minute miles (still almost a minute/mile slower than 3:06 pace), sometimes 9:30's, I assume depending on how he's feeling. One of the responses says that this is how the pros have trained for years. I wonder how true that is.

What I liked about the Peter Sagal thread is the sense of control he felt. That's what I want, and what I've been missing on both marathons. On both, I felt like I was falling apart. I could have run an hour slower and I'm not sure I would have felt much better. For my first half, I was woefully undertrained and felt like garbage at the end. Now when I run halfs, I feel tired, but I also don't feel like it's out of my league. Marathons feel out of my league. Hopefully, more miles will help that.

Speaking of "just get more miles" - I saw a TV piece on the runner from SUU (Cam Levins?) talking about how he was really a nobody when it came to running. Then he just started running miles. More and more miles. His trick wasn't running faster or doing certain workouts (at least initially). What made him good/fast was just putting in more miles than anyone else would put in.

So there must be something to that.

[Eddie]

Just entered the Ogden Marathon again. Or at least I entered the drawing. Three years ago the registration began in October and I signed up in January. Two years ago I signed up in December. Last year I think it was full within about 2-3 weeks. Crazy how much this particular race has caught on.

This year they are doing a drawing for the first time. I wasn't sure I was going to do it last year, but just couldn't help myself. And I suppose that's what happened again. I'm just drawn to it.

I'm hoping to get in to St. George this year - it will be my second time applying so if this year doesn't work out, next year is the charm. I have decided I want to run two this year, so if St. George doesn't happen I may look to Top of Utah, Layton, or one of the other fall races.

[Pheidippides]

Started Pfitz 12/70 today. I feel pretty good and recovered from StG, and today's 8 miler went off without a hitch, but I've got all sorts of aches I'm worried about. In in particular, I have a funky ache in my right knee that doesn't hurt when I run at all, but feels odd when I'm (for example) taking off my shoes. I think I tweaked something playing soccer with my kids.

[Joe Public]

Started Pfitz 12/70 today. I feel pretty good and recovered from StG, and today's 8 miler went off without a hitch, but I've got all sorts of aches I'm worried about. In in particular, I have a funky ache in my right knee that doesn't hurt when I run at all, but feels odd when I'm (for example) taking off my shoes. I think I tweaked something playing soccer with my kids.

Is that one of the Advanced Marathoning programs? I don't know much about them, but the two people I know who ran Boston used those programs to get ready. Pretty heavy on miles, right?

I have a StG lingering ache, too. I'm virtually always careful to tie my shoes to a certain tightness when I run. However, I tied my left shoe somewhat tighter than usual on race morning. I thought about doing it again, but I moved on to something else and ran the whole race that way. The top of my foot has ached ever since. I'm hoping it goes away at some point. It doesn't impede my training and isn't getting worse, so I'm just monitoring it for now.

[lambdacoug]

Well, I just got a copy of The Runner's World Big Book of Marathon and Half-Marathon Training. I suppose thus begins my Marathon training. It's going to take over a year, and I'm not convinced I can do it. I wasn't convinced I could ever run a 5k, or a 10k, but I've done both now. The plan is to run monthly 5k/10ks and work towards the Hospital Hill half-marathon in June 1st 2013. If I miss that, there is the Kansas City half-marathon in October 2013. I'm a Kansas City native, born and raised and I would like my first Marathon to be the Kansas City Marathon in October 2014. This seems very ambitious to me. I'm currently nursing sore knees and haven't run much at all lately. I don't know if I'll ever make it, but I didn't think I'd ever lose nearly 80 lbs either, or run a 10k. I'll not clog up your Marathon thread much, but I suppose this is the tentative beginning of my training for a Marathon.