Marathon Training: Pace Runs

[cowboy]

I've been trying to throw some pace runs into my training this summer, hoping that will help me break 4 hours. To break 4, I need to average a 9:09 pace. I plan to walk through water stops, which will cost me about 5 seconds on my pace, and the last three miles will probably be 10:30 pace at best, which will add another 9 seconds to my overall pace. On top of that, my GPS always shows that I run more that 26.2 miles in a race, probably because of in and out running, etc., so I need to figure an extra .4 miles, adding another 9 seconds. Totaling all this up, I need to be running 8:46 pace runs.

One of my big problems lately, though, is that this pace is a killer for me after 7 or so miles. Tomorrow I want to run a 9-mile pace run, and I'm not sure I can do it. Is this normal, or am I just not in good enough shape to run that pace? Any secrets for better pace runs? What about nutrition the day before? Should I load up on carbs the previous day? Any help would be appreciated.

[chrisrenrut]

I don't mean to derail this thread, but your title made me think of one of my favorite running stories ever:

http://www.boston.com/marathon/stori..._setter+.shtml

[Sea Chicken]

I've been trying to throw some pace runs into my training this summer, hoping that will help me break 4 hours. To break 4, I need to average a 9:09 pace. I plan to walk through water stops, which will cost me about 5 seconds on my pace, and the last three miles will probably be 10:30 pace at best, which will add another 9 seconds to my overall pace. On top of that, my GPS always shows that I run more that 26.2 miles in a race, probably because of in and out running, etc., so I need to figure an extra .4 miles, adding another 9 seconds. Totaling all this up, I need to be running 8:46 pace runs.

One of my big problems lately, though, is that this pace is a killer for me after 7 or so miles. Tomorrow I want to run a 9-mile pace run, and I'm not sure I can do it. Is this normal, or am I just not in good enough shape to run that pace? Any secrets for better pace runs? What about nutrition the day before? Should I load up on carbs the previous day? Any help would be appreciated.

What is your half marathon race pace?

[cowboy]

What is your half marathon race pace?

I haven't run a half marathon race for a couple of years, so I don't really know. I did run 5 at 8:46 with water break this morning and felt okay, but I didn't feel like I could keep it up for another 21 miles.

[bluegoose]

Its been almost a year since my last marathon, and I'm not running one this fall, so I haven't reviewed any programs for awhile.

Remind me again - are you doing any other specific types of runs during the week? Intervals, tempo, long slow? If not, it may be a bit too close to the big day to start.

I found tempo runs to give me a pretty good idea as to my fitness levels and as a way to see if my pacing was still appropriate for my estimated finish time. If I was able to do 6-8 miles at a pace slightly faster (15-30 secs/mile) than my race pace, I felt much more confident going into a pace run, even if the distance was a bit longer than the tempo run.

As to where I got my pacing, I really like [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0736054928/ref=oss_product"]Amazon.com: Daniels' Running Formula - 2nd Edition (9780736054928): Jack Daniels: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VR1iCxBBL.@@AMEPARAM@@51VR1iCxBBL[/ame]. It has a number of great charts indicating how fast you should be running different types of workouts based on recent and estimated race times. Even though i missed my target time by 6 mins last year, i thought the workouts and pacing schedules were right on.

[ERCougar]

Google's your friend here. There are plenty of calculators on line that will prescribe a tempo run pace for you based on your goal race pace and distance. I'd echo what bluegoose said as a general guide.

Another thing--you mentioned that your last 3 miles will be no better than 10:30. I'm not sure if you're talking about TOU's course profile or about being tired. If it's the latter, you pushed yourself to hard at the beginning. At a marathon distance, you need to negative split (ignoring uphill/downhill) to get your best time. The ideal race would be running about 15-30 seconds slower than goal for your first few miles and slowly speeding up to goal pace by about mile 10. The worst place you can be is at the halfway mark and say "wow, that's way less than half my goal!". I've read account after account of this happening and without fail, the person crashes at mile 20 (or so) and doesn't reach goal.

I read a really good article explaining the physiology behind negative splitting and why you should do it--I'll try to track it down tonight if work gets slow.

Caveat: This all assumes a relatively constant race profile (uphill/downhill), which TOU is most certainly not. That will make things a bit tricky, because your first half will definitely be quicker than your last half.

[Pheidippides]

Google's your friend here. There are plenty of calculators on line that will prescribe a tempo run pace for you based on your goal race pace and distance. I'd echo what bluegoose said as a general guide.

Another thing--you mentioned that your last 3 miles will be no better than 10:30. I'm not sure if you're talking about TOU's course profile or about being tired. If it's the latter, you pushed yourself to hard at the beginning. At a marathon distance, you need to negative split (ignoring uphill/downhill) to get your best time. The ideal race would be running about 15-30 seconds slower than goal for your first few miles and slowly speeding up to goal pace by about mile 10. The worst place you can be is at the halfway mark and say "wow, that's way less than half my goal!". I've read account after account of this happening and without fail, the person crashes at mile 20 (or so) and doesn't reach goal.

I read a really good article explaining the physiology behind negative splitting and why you should do it--I'll try to track it down tonight if work gets slow.

Caveat: This all assumes a relatively constant race profile (uphill/downhill), which TOU is most certainly not. That will make things a bit tricky, because your first half will definitely be quicker than your last half.

That's the problem we're facing (cowboy and I are planning on pacing each other, as we're about the same speed and have the same time goals). I like the negative split idea quite a bit, but the execution on this course is going to be tricky. The first 14 are going to be blistering, the last 12 not so much.

[doctorcoug]

You need more miles. A 12-15 mile run day in day out will significantly aid you in your quest. When is your race?