Soccer Mom's thread grabbed my attention.

[Rosebud]

I wanted to merge this thread with Soccermom's thread on guilt. I was thinking about what is taught about why the spirit will not be with you and that is that there is something out of sorts in your life. It is implicitly and explicitly taught that you cannot hear the spirit when you are leading your life incorrectly. For some, they start to question themselves when they are not having the same spiritual experiences as others. They start to wonder what is wrong with them. I think this can lead to feelings of guilt as they hash and rehash aspects of their lives and their interactions with others. They can start to feel that these are the reasons that they are not having the spiritual feelings that earnestly seek.

That's my pop psychology for the night. What you all think? Do you think that you are removed from spiritual experiences when your live is astray?

I can't convince myself that the type of guilt spoken of in Soccermom's thread has anything to do with God. I'm not sure, either, that it is a result of people choosing to get after themselves for not having the same spiritual experiences that other people do. My pop psychology take is that some people feel unrelenting guilt because authority figures used guilt to alter their behaviors as children and they continue to feel that same guilt into their adult lives.

To me, guilt that lasts over a long period of time is different than short-term guilt that tells you that you've done something hurtful and that you need to change your negative behavior. Unrelenting feelings of guilt may cut people off from feeling the love that God has for them, but I don't think that rift has much to do with God or their worthiness. IMO, people may mistakenly interpret things they did wrong as the reason they don't feel the love of God, but that logic just doesn't hold up with my thoughts about God's forgiving, loving nature. Relentless feelings of guilt probably won't go away, though, until people correctly identify their source and deal with the hurt they felt when they were first made to feel guilty.

Just my opinion... and these ideas, of course, aren't meant to apply to every situation.

[faith]

I wanted to merge this thread with Soccermom's thread on guilt. I was thinking about what is taught about why the spirit will not be with you and that is that there is something out of sorts in your life. It is implicitly and explicitly taught that you cannot hear the spirit when you are leading your life incorrectly. For some, they start to question themselves when they are not having the same spiritual experiences as others. They start to wonder what is wrong with them. I think this can lead to feelings of guilt as they hash and rehash aspects of their lives and their interactions with others. They can start to feel that these are the reasons that they are not having the spiritual feelings that earnestly seek.

That's my pop psychology for the night. What you all think? Do you think that you are removed from spiritual experiences when your live is astray?

You ask a fascinating question. It is interesting to me because I know that I was raised to believe that the spirit cannot dwell in unclean places, yet I can’t quite accept that teaching. I think that it is so easy to rationalize wrong-doing in one’s head. I believe that people often do wrong, but somehow convince themselves that what they are doing is acceptable. I actually believe that this is how many atrocities throughout time have been committed. Yet, even with the “sin” that a person may live with (at all different levels), I believe that the “spirit” is always there to let one know what is right and wrong, and to inspire despite how tarnished a soul is. I think of someone like Martin Luther King, an absolutely inspired and wonderful man. He committed adultery, which even by him would be considered, “going astray”. Yet, the words he spoke and his actions lead me to think that this was a man who felt the spirit on a regular basis.

I remember becoming very aware of some of my own rationalizations at different points in my life, and recognizing that I had been doing wrong, yet remembering feeling inspired by the spirit in other areas while I was rationalizing wrong-doing (on a pretty small scale, yet I wonder if it transfers to larger scale). Crazily enough, the time that I had the most difficulty feeling the spirit was when I was on my mission, trying so hard to please God. On my mission, I became ill with a consistent, unexplainable fever. My mission president would call me in and exhort me to resolve any unresolved sin in my life. He said that I must have something to repent of. I began to question myself and had to search my soul to make sure that I had no unresolved sin that was creating my illness. I felt overwhelmed with guilt even though I could not think of anything that I had not repented of. I felt so alone and confused and immersed myself in constant prayer and meditation. After intense struggle, I finally received what I believed to be confirmation by the spirit that I was acceptable in the eyes of God. I really believe that the guilt that I felt was not from God but from my mission president, but I still don't understand why when I was doing everything that I possibly could to do right and feel the spirit, I felt the most alone.

[Donuthole]

You ask a fascinating question. It is interesting to me because I know that I was raised to believe that the spirit cannot dwell in unclean places, yet I can’t quite accept that teaching. I think that it is so easy to rationalize wrong-doing in one’s head. I believe that people often do wrong, but somehow convince themselves that what they are doing is acceptable. I actually believe that this is how many atrocities throughout time have been committed. Yet, even with the “sin” that a person may live with (at all different levels), I believe that the “spirit” is always there to let one know what is right and wrong, and to inspire despite how tarnished a soul is. I think of someone like Martin Luther King, an absolutely inspired and wonderful man. He committed adultery, which even by him would be considered, “going astray”. Yet, the words he spoke and his actions lead me to think that this was a man who felt the spirit on a regular basis.

I remember becoming very aware of some of my own rationalizations at different points in my life, and recognizing that I had been doing wrong, yet remembering feeling inspired by the spirit in other areas while I was rationalizing wrong-doing (on a pretty small scale, yet I wonder if it transfers to larger scale). Crazily enough, the time that I had the most difficulty feeling the spirit was when I was on my mission, trying so hard to please God. On my mission, I became ill with a consistent, unexplainable fever. My mission president would call me in and exhort me to resolve any unresolved sin in my life. He said that I must have something to repent of. I began to question myself and had to search my soul to make sure that I had no unresolved sin that was creating my illness. I felt overwhelmed with guilt even though I could not think of anything that I had not repented of. I felt so alone and confused and immersed myself in constant prayer and meditation. After intense struggle, I finally received what I believed to be confirmation by the spirit that I was acceptable in the eyes of God. I really believe that the guilt that I felt was not from God but from my mission president, but I still don't understand why when I was doing everything that I possibly could to do right and feel the spirit, I felt the most alone.

Let me be the first CWUFfer to say that your mission president was (is?) a dongface. But you already knew that, I suppose.

[wuapinmon]

I appreciate her post and most of the replies to it.

I, like most here, am LDS. I'm 34. I'm finding as life progresses that things aren't quite as tidy as I once believed them to be at the age of 19-21.

I rarely post on this forum, much less in the "The Foyer", but I have to admit that there is some degree of comfort that comes from hearing other people struggle. Knowing that I'm not the "only one."

Not the only one that doesn't "just love going to the Temple."

Not the only one that is bored by the 3 hour block. Not the only one that goes home from the 3 hour block MORE tired then when I arrived.

Not the only one that doesn't go to the temple regularly.

Not the only one that doesn't get great inspiration from reading a book over and over again.

Not the only one that has a hard time saying "I KNOW" when sharing a testimony...finding I "believe" or I "hope" to be more honest.

Not the only one that doesn't believe that falling asleep at night after "physical acts of love" without the garment is not a one way ticket to a fiery hell.

I guess you get my point. This post is a bit cathartic. To be honest, this is really the first time I've shared a lot of these thoughts with anyone, for many of the reasons stated in that thread started by Soccermom.

I get to the point, a lot of times, where I just start to think, "What is WRONG with me???" When I hear someone going on and on about how much they love the temple. Or when I hear them saying that they never feel any closer to God then in the Temple. Or how strong the Spirit was in a meeting...a meeting in which I was really trying to feel or learn something but came away...well, empty.

Does anyone else feel this way? I guess some of you do. I just get tired of going to Church meetings and hearing other people's glowing reviews of the scriptures, or the Temple and wondering why, if I am TRYING, do i not have the same experience.

I feel love. I feel warmth when I serve and am served. That's really it. It's what I hang onto for dear life. Really, the times when I am most touched at church, or anywhere, are the times when I hear of people reaching out to people and making a difference. But, like someone mentioned, it seems like the more I *think*, the less I feel.

Well, this is a rambling post. Not a good debut for me in "The Foyer." It's to be expected, I suppose. I am not as erudite as others. My vocabulary is not as polished. I am not a wordsmith. My views and opinions flow from observation and emotions, not from deep seated understanding of the great philosophers or authors.

I guess, I just "am." It's good to know that there are others who, like me, want to be part of the Church, and just "are."

Are you still in the same place?

I'm not sure that it is reasonable to assume that spiritual experience is going to happen through our physical senses. Physical senses are capable of being deceived. If you want to be really 'logical,' to make the argument that spiritual experience is something capable of transmitting truth we might have to assume the existence of a sixth sense, a spiritual receiver.

That seems less logical to me.

Really? I'm just borrowing a technique used by quantum physicists. There are subatomic particles that are so tiny that we our current technological view of the universe offers us no hope to ever being able to 'see' them. But we witness sub-atomic phenomena and deduce the existence of these particles, and then we give them names.

Well to me, it just doesn't seem reasonable for God to transmit essential 'truth' via something as prone to deception as physical sense. If the truth is essential, and if God is perfect, and if we are going to be judged based on what we do with the truth, it would seem reasonable that the truth would be experienced via something more trustworthy than emotions and physical feeling. From that maybe we can deduce the existence of a spiritual sensing receptor.

Where does that line of reasoning fall flat?

There is no question that many things labeled as "the spirit" are simple human emotions. However, I have had some religious experiences that transcend and were unlike any other emotional reactions I have experienced. And ironically, some of the most powerful experiences came at periods in my life when I was quite doubtful of all things religion. I.e., my skepticism had put me in a frame of mind that would not make me pre-disposed to misinterpret or overstate my emotions. I suppose the most logical explanation for these cases would be that these were also simple biological events rather than something divine. But I choose to believe otherwise.

D&C 131:7-8 says:

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

In reading your quote, I'm reminded of an experience I had once, in the wretched MTC actually, that doesn't really fit inside of an emotional response to any stimuli. I wonder if, in light of the revelation received, if Robin might be right, that there is some "purer" sensory input that falls to us during intense spiritual manifestations.

[Viking]

Are you still in the same place?









D&C 131:7-8 says:



In reading your quote, I'm reminded of an experience I had once, in the wretched MTC actually, that doesn't really fit inside of an emotional response to any stimuli. I wonder if, in light of the revelation received, if Robin might be right, that there is some "purer" sensory input that falls to us during intense spiritual manifestations.

the longer i'm out, the more i think that perhaps the basics of JS and his message were likely more "true" than not but that the leadership has progressively "missed" it. I find the less religious I am, the more spiritual I'm able to be.

I go to sac meeting about 1-2x a month with my mormon wife but while I find myself rolling my eyes at the grating repetition and incessant cliches, I also wonder if I just need to be more patient with the religion side and more tolerant of its shortcomings, which are many.

[wuapinmon]

the longer i'm out, the more i think that perhaps the basics of JS and his message were likely more "true" than not but that the leadership has progressively "missed" it. I find the less religious I am, the more spiritual I'm able to be.

I go to sac meeting about 1-2x a month with my mormon wife but while I find myself rolling my eyes at the grating repetition and incessant cliches, I also wonder if I just need to be more patient with the religion side and more tolerant of its shortcomings, which are many.

I'm trying to do this, but my critical eye sees so many things that bother me. Sometimes, I just tell myself to shut up, and I enjoy it more. Last week was not good for me at church. The messages were all about the resurrection, and it just didn't work for me (I was missing my dad pretty hard).

[Viking]

I'm trying to do this, but my critical eye sees so many things that bother me. Sometimes, I just tell myself to shut up, and I enjoy it more. Last week was not good for me at church. The messages were all about the resurrection, and it just didn't work for me (I was missing my dad pretty hard).

If I could do it all over, I'd stay in but be very much part of the "loyal opposition"