Soccer Mom's thread grabbed my attention.

[cowboy]

However, I don't have the authority to change the questions for temple recommends (required to do baptism for the dead) or ecclesiastical endorsements so I won't be able to sign either of those things for your daughter.

But don't you just have to ask if they obey the law of chastity for the TR? No gory details?

[Art Vandelay]

But don't you just have to ask if they obey the law of chastity for the TR? No gory details?

Though I generally don't like asking closed-ended questions to youth, that could be a good compromise for a situation like RB's.

[KillerDog]

I appreciate her post and most of the replies to it.

I, like most here, am LDS. I'm 34. I'm finding as life progresses that things aren't quite as tidy as I once believed them to be at the age of 19-21.

I rarely post on this forum, much less in the "The Foyer", but I have to admit that there is some degree of comfort that comes from hearing other people struggle. Knowing that I'm not the "only one."

Not the only one that doesn't "just love going to the Temple."

Not the only one that is bored by the 3 hour block. Not the only one that goes home from the 3 hour block MORE tired then when I arrived.

Not the only one that doesn't go to the temple regularly.

Not the only one that doesn't get great inspiration from reading a book over and over again.

Not the only one that has a hard time saying "I KNOW" when sharing a testimony...finding I "believe" or I "hope" to be more honest.

Not the only one that doesn't believe that falling asleep at night after "physical acts of love" without the garment is not a one way ticket to a fiery hell.

I guess you get my point. This post is a bit cathartic. To be honest, this is really the first time I've shared a lot of these thoughts with anyone, for many of the reasons stated in that thread started by Soccermom.

I get to the point, a lot of times, where I just start to think, "What is WRONG with me???" When I hear someone going on and on about how much they love the temple. Or when I hear them saying that they never feel any closer to God then in the Temple. Or how strong the Spirit was in a meeting...a meeting in which I was really trying to feel or learn something but came away...well, empty.

Does anyone else feel this way? I guess some of you do. I just get tired of going to Church meetings and hearing other people's glowing reviews of the scriptures, or the Temple and wondering why, if I am TRYING, do i not have the same experience.

I feel love. I feel warmth when I serve and am served. That's really it. It's what I hang onto for dear life. Really, the times when I am most touched at church, or anywhere, are the times when I hear of people reaching out to people and making a difference. But, like someone mentioned, it seems like the more I *think*, the less I feel.

Well, this is a rambling post. Not a good debut for me in "The Foyer." It's to be expected, I suppose. I am not as erudite as others. My vocabulary is not as polished. I am not a wordsmith. My views and opinions flow from observation and emotions, not from deep seated understanding of the great philosophers or authors.

I guess, I just "am." It's good to know that there are others who, like me, want to be part of the Church, and just "are."

I'm generally with you except maybe a little worse off. Increasingly, I don't believe in God at all but for my family's sake and to avoid social ostracism, I continue to put out the best LDS vibe I can. The result is that I'm always in callings usually held by the faithful where I increasingly have to deny my true beliefs. I wonder if the hypocrisy will become too much at some point or if my legal training has prepared me to say something I don't believe without ramifications.

[byu71]

I'm generally with you except maybe a little worse off. Increasingly, I don't believe in God at all but for my family's sake and to avoid social ostracism, I continue to put out the best LDS vibe I can. The result is that I'm always in callings usually held by the faithful where I increasingly have to deny my true beliefs. I wonder if the hypocrisy will become too much at some point or if my legal training has prepared me to say something I don't believe without ramifications.

If you got good legal training, you will be able to lie convincingly as long as you want to.

[KillerDog]

If you got good legal training, you will be able to lie convincingly as long as you want to.

That's what I think.

[JohnnyLingo]

I'm generally with you except maybe a little worse off. Increasingly, I don't believe in God at all but for my family's sake and to avoid social ostracism, I continue to put out the best LDS vibe I can. The result is that I'm always in callings usually held by the faithful where I increasingly have to deny my true beliefs. I wonder if the hypocrisy will become too much at some point or if my legal training has prepared me to say something I don't believe without ramifications.

I hope you don't think I'm being flippant, but that's incredible. I'd be shocked if it didn't become too much one day... that's quite a strain.

[KillerDog]

I hope you don't think I'm being flippant, but that's incredible. I'd be shocked if it didn't become too much one day... that's quite a strain.

I don't think it is as much of a strain as you would think. Most people lie to themselves in this direction and it allows them to lie to others. Me, I just tell myself the truth but lie to others. It comes out in small ways that I'm not as much of a true believer but my personality is such that people think I'm joking.

Frankly, it is easy to look at Church like a scholastic endeavor and go through the motions to keep the status quo.

[Portland Ute]

K-Dog, you are right. You are much further down the continuum than I am.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. The cognitive dissonance you must be experiencing has to be tough. It sounds VERY stressful and frustrating to me.

I hope that somehow, you and I can BOTH count ourselves amongst the "knowers."

My prayers are with you. I can't imagine how hard your situation must be.

Do I dare ask why you no longer believe in God?

[KillerDog]

K-Dog, you are right. You are much further down the continuum than I am.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. The cognitive dissonance you must be experiencing has to be tough. It sounds VERY stressful and frustrating to me.

I hope that somehow, you and I can BOTH count ourselves amongst the "knowers."

My prayers are with you. I can't imagine how hard your situation must be.

Do I dare ask why you no longer believe in God?

My testimony in general degenerated after I realized the feelings I had always thought were the spirit felt the same as the feelings I felt under a variety of circumstances that were clearly not spiritual. I then had to ask myself why I had identified them as spiritual experiences and I had to admit that it was because I had been told the experiences were spiritual. Long term indoctrination and chemical/emotional response was a better explanation and made more sense than All powerful supreme being.

[Rosebud]

Though I generally don't like asking closed-ended questions to youth, that could be a good compromise for a situation like RB's.

Thanks for the time you put into thinking about my situation Art . Your words and thoughts mean a lot to me. I love that you're participating on CUF and applying the discussions to your own stewardship. That's what I try to do with the knowledge and wisdom I gain here, too. Perhaps I'm sticking my nose out too far, though, but I think that this issue is important for more than just my children.

One of the things that I really like about our church is that it recognizes the spiritual stewardship parents have over their children. I feel strongly that some of the church's policies are hurtful to children (private bishop interviews about spiritual sexual confession/education) and others don't do enough to protect them. The authoritarian nature of the church, however, makes it difficult for me to raise my concerns without fear of reprisal. However, the church's deference to my personal stewardship over my children provides me an opportunity to bring up an issue that I believe ought to be given some airtime in a larger arena than my personal discussion with my bishop about my children. Escalation to higher authorities wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.....

I really want to be clear that I don't think that my bishop or most bishops really have any nefarious purposes when conducting these interviews. On a practical level, though, a lot of times these interviews can be negative for both parties and I think that parents all over the church have a right to question whether or not they want even well-meaning bishops to discuss masturbation with their sons and daughters. Is there a better way to meet the spiritual needs of our teenagers than interviews with authority figures who wield power?

IMO, It's possible to keep the structure of the church and not extend implicit trust to people just because of their callings or the public way they present themselves. I love this thread because it has given people an opportunity to talk about the discrepancy between their public presentations of themselves and their real thoughts and feelings about the gospel. IMO, it's natural for us to each project our own relationship with the church onto the people sitting in the other pews. For example, true believers are likely to believe that a majority of others are true believers, social Mormons are likely to believe that a majority of others are social mormons, etc. The truth is probably that our congregations are a mixture of all sorts of people who are working to portray themselves positively. Most of these people can be trusted, but some can't. Unfortunately, sometimes (and hopefully rarely) the bishop is the one who can't be trusted. But bishops we can't trust aren't necessarily "crazy."

[woot]

My testimony in general degenerated after I realized the feelings I had always thought were the spirit felt the same as the feelings I felt under a variety of circumstances that were clearly not spiritual. I then had to ask myself why I had identified them as spiritual experiences and I had to admit that it was because I had been told the experiences were spiritual. Long term indoctrination and chemical/emotional response was a better explanation and made more sense than All powerful supreme being.

Although this came later for me and only after I had identified a list of intellectual/logical concerns, this describes exactly my experience as well.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I enjoy sacrament. I fight 4 little kids and mormon culture is mormon culture wherever you go. Saying that, I think the dynamics of very small town living makes sacrament more enjoyable. Since the community is so close I really enjoy watching the youth speak and present their musical numbers. I hate "I walk today..blah blah blah" as previously stated if given the chance I would punch Jenni Phillips in the vagina. However, I love the young ladies singing that ridiculously insipid song. I coach these kids in sports, root for them in every extracurricular event that they participate in in high school. They represent the town and community I dearly love. Their success and development is something I love to watch and enjoy. I will watch these kids give their first talks as sunbeams and get to watch them through high school, go to college, get married and even return as missionaries. I think the closeness and how our lives are interwoven in a community such as this makes their damned boringness easier to tolerate.

Goat this is a great post, and I agree with almost all of it. I hate sacrament meeting.

I am the Teachers Q advisor and I love it. I love the kids, I love going to their games, chatting with them on Facebook, texting them during Duck games, scout camping trips with no emphasis on merit badges. I think they are great kids and I enjoy being around them, it makes my life better. But most of the adults in my ward I would rather avoid.

[scottie]

My testimony in general degenerated after I realized the feelings I had always thought were the spirit felt the same as the feelings I felt under a variety of circumstances that were clearly not spiritual. I then had to ask myself why I had identified them as spiritual experiences and I had to admit that it was because I had been told the experiences were spiritual. Long term indoctrination and chemical/emotional response was a better explanation and made more sense than All powerful supreme being.

Amen brother KillerDog.

[RobinFinderson]

My testimony in general degenerated after I realized the feelings I had always thought were the spirit felt the same as the feelings I felt under a variety of circumstances that were clearly not spiritual. I then had to ask myself why I had identified them as spiritual experiences and I had to admit that it was because I had been told the experiences were spiritual. Long term indoctrination and chemical/emotional response was a better explanation and made more sense than All powerful supreme being.

Although this came later for me and only after I had identified a list of intellectual/logical concerns, this describes exactly my experience as well.

Amen brother KillerDog.

I will add my own 'Amen brother!' to that of woot and scottie. Well said KillerDog.

Storytellers from time immemorial have been using 'spine tingles' to manipulate audiences. Plato's concept of the Noble Lie, IMO, speaks to this issue. Religious people of all sorts create settings where people are going to feel spine tingles, and then they tell the audience what those spine tingles mean. I realize that 'spine tingles' doesn't do justice to the full range of spiritual experience, but anyone who has served a mission knows very well that 'spine tingles' is exactly what happens when missionaries are encouraged to 'help investigators feel and recognize the spirit.'

[CardiacCoug]

My testimony in general degenerated after I realized the feelings I had always thought were the spirit felt the same as the feelings I felt under a variety of circumstances that were clearly not spiritual. I then had to ask myself why I had identified them as spiritual experiences and I had to admit that it was because I had been told the experiences were spiritual. Long term indoctrination and chemical/emotional response was a better explanation and made more sense than All powerful supreme being.

I know this will sound condescending, but I don't think this realization is a big deal and I'm surprised more people don't figure this out much earlier. Everybody should at some point have this same realization (if they ever really believed in the first place): that the most likely explanation of "spiritual feelings" is that they represent normal, biological emotions. It's not really a big deal -- it's stage 4 of Fowler's stages of faith that everybody is supposed to go through in their 20s or 30s.

It's after you have this realization that you can really choose to exercise faith with the full knowledge that the things in which you choose to believe are improbable or unlikely. I'm not even speaking of Mormonism specifically but just Christianity generally when I refer to exercising faith in things that should seem highly unlikely to any intelligent, rational person.