Church News Downplays Significance of Book of Abraham

[Taq Man]

If you are referring to my own avatars, stay tuned, I've only just begun.

I think the irony he is referring to is that the truth conveyed by my avatar makes you question the truth of my statements.

You are aware that Joseph translated most of the BofM with his head in his hat?????

[Indy Coug]

I think the irony he is referring to is that the truth conveyed by my avatar makes you question the truth of my statements.

You are aware that Joseph translated most of the BofM with his head in his hat?????

I read most of the Book of Enoch looking at a box sitting on top of my computer desk.

[Taq Man]

I read most of the Book of Enoch looking at a box sitting on top of my computer desk.

How Ironic. I wonder how much better Jospeh could have been with an HD seer stone.

[SeattleUte]

If you are referring to my own avatars, stay tuned, I've only just begun.

I was referring to the fact that, if memory serves me, Taq's avatar depicts a scene described by one of the "witnesses". If you will only selectively consider the evidence what credibility do you have? (You seem to be emarrassed by this seer stone in a hat story, as you should be.)

In any event, even taking a step down this road makes me feel ridiculous. As Sterling McMurrin aptly stated, modern people recognize that angels and gold books is not how the world works; if there's a God it's not how He interacts with his creations. He is more subtle, and inscrutable than that. I have seen more mistchief than good come out of such a atavistic, narrow and parochial view of the world. That is the primary reason I reject Joseph's story out of hand, without even getting into stuff like the Book of Abraham that expose him as a fraud applying rules of reason and empricism.

The only reason people like Viking and Cardiac who conduct themselves like they don't believe speak as though they are open to the possibility is that this is ingrained. It's the only "god" they really have grown up and lived with and are able to consider at this time. The whole notion of a "prophet" who receives visits from God (to paraphrase Viking's phrase applied to Joseph) is a cultural construct, derived from the Old Testament. Moses and Yaweh were literary characters. Like Harold Bloom, I adore literary characters, but, as he noted, we are really no different than any self-identified "Christian," "Jew," "Muslim," or "Mormon."

[LA Ute]

I was referring to the fact that, if memory serves me, Taq's avatar depicts a scene described by one of the "witnesses". If you will only selectively consider the evidence what credibility do you have? (You seem to be emarrassed by this seer stone in a hat story, as you should be.)

No, just pointing out that the avatar is one that fairly screams out "I have an axe to grind!" It originates on an Evangelical anti-Mormon site.

[Indy Coug]

How Ironic. I wonder how much better Jospeh could have been with an HD seer stone.

My point is does it really matter what medium/media was/were used to get the translated text?

These days, half of my ward have their heads buried in their seer stones at church.

[RobinFinderson]

No, just pointing out that the avatar is one that fairly screams out "I have an axe to grind!" It originates on an Evangelical anti-Mormon site.

Is that even true? How do you know that it ORIGINATES from that site, as opposed to just being used by it?

[LA Ute]

Is that even true? How do you know that it ORIGINATES from that site, as opposed to just being used by it?

Robin, the copyright is held claimed by the Institute for Religious Research.

[Indy Coug]

Robin, the copyright is held by the Institute for Religious Research.

That title sure sounds official and impartial...

[UtahDan]

This one.

"In fact, it would have been easier if he had simply said that he had a Lehi type vision and that this is what he saw. Again, I wonder whether that is closer to the truth. Could he have been mistaken? Could he have made a choice to put these words in Abraham's mouth? "

There are 2 sticky parts. The first is where he says it was actually written by Abraham. Much of the hieroglyphs are in a short hand version that the egyptians developed way after Abrahams time. Some of that shorthand is on one of the facsimiles that Joseph claims Abraham drew. Again it is a language that did not exist in the time of Abraham.

The second sticky part is that Josephs scribe wrote down translation notes in Josephs journal. It seems a bit of a stretch to think that they would try to Rosetta stone the papyrus with Joseph's translation if they weren't all completly certain it was a translation and not a revelation.

I must have missed something, because those sound like arguments that underscore at least the possibility that he thought he was translating and wasn't. As we know with the BOM, the "translation" was often done without the gold plates so however these things came to Joseph there is precedent for not using the document. Look, I'm not saying I know. This is not an easy thing to defend. I'm simply holding the door open here that he was wrong.

I have read what the apologists say and the only thing they say that doesn't sound like hog wash is that you cannot look only at the process and not the product. Many people look at that product and have a hard time getting away from it being inspired for reasons that are not reason based. This is not a thought process unique to the LDS faith, and it is not evidence based, which means that there is no "winning" that argument.

[UtahDan]

These days, half of my ward have their heads buried in their seer stones at church.

Ah, the sound of gentle snoring.

[Taq Man]

No, just pointing out that the avatar is one that fairly screams out "I have an axe to grind!" It originates on an Evangelical anti-Mormon site.

I could say the same thing about anything from an official Mormon source. Its tainted with Mormon bias and dismiss it out of hand.

Wouldnt it be better to reserve judgment and examine things for ourselves?

[Taq Man]

I must have missed something, because those sound like arguments that underscore at least the possibility that he thought he was translating and wasn't. As we know with the BOM, the "translation" was often done without the gold plates so however these things came to Joseph there is precedent for not using the document. Look, I'm not saying I know. This is not an easy thing to defend. I'm simply holding the door open here that he was wrong.

I have read what the apologists say and the only thing they say that doesn't sound like hog wash is that you cannot look only at the process and not the product. Many people look at that product and have a hard time getting away from it being inspired for reasons that are not reason based. This is not a thought process unique to the LDS faith, and it is not evidence based, which means that there is no "winning" that argument.

Agreed on all counts. This is one that must be taken on faith....if your into that sort of thing.

[Taq Man]

Is that even true? How do you know that it ORIGINATES from that site, as opposed to just being used by it?

I almost used the southpark one instead but decided this was less offensive. Oh well the baby with the bathwater I guess.

[LA Ute]

I could say the same thing about anything from an official Mormon source. Its tainted with Mormon bias and dismiss it out of hand.

Wouldnt it be better to reserve judgment and examine things for ourselves?

Of course no one is free from bias. But there's a difference between having a bias and having an agenda.