discussing polyandry with the missionaries

[Rosebud]

No one coerces me to have a job. No one coerces me to get up before 7AM. No one coerced me to wear conservative business casual wear instead of wearing a "Satan Loves Muslims" t-shirt.

The church is no more coercive than virtually any significant aspect of our lives is. In fact, in most instances, it's less coercive.

Different people are coerced on different levels. Be careful not to generalize your own experience so much that you disqualify other people's experiences. Not everyone enjoys the freedoms that you enjoy. (This thought applies to both religious and secular freedoms.) It IS possible that the church can be coercive to some while it is non-coercive to others.

[KillerDog]

Here is a very fine short story by E.L. Doctorow, published in the New Yorker, about a man who joins a cult with his wife. The setting is contemporary but Joseph Smith and his movement and personal sexual abuses with wives of his trusting disciples clearly were the inspiration (by the way, I believe Doctorow spent some time at the University of Utah, while he was writing Ragtime; someone told me this once; I don't have a link). I found the story quite chilling. Anyway, if you want to be transported into the mind of the cuckold in a situation involving a polyandrist cult leader this might give you a glimpse.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200...0512fi_fiction

Fun read.

[falafel]

I've had this discussion, but is it the Church or God that is being so coercive? If you believe the Church to be His, then you really believe He is coercing you, not the brethren.

Unless, of course, you separate out the coercive elements of the faith as being the acts of men and not divinely inspired.

I don't believe it is God that is coercive. It's probably the Church in practice combined with the individual thoughts of the members.

For example, I'm not planning on being unfaithful to my wife, partly because it would ruin my relationship with her right now, but also because it would have grave consequences on my eternal future (according to Church teachings).

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think you're right in that it's not very fair to bring these kinds of things up with them (from friendly ground). The difficulty for me comes in dealing with the complete surety that almost borders on arrogance that comes from these missionaries sometimes. Maybe it's Satan, maybe it's jealousy, but I find myself suppressing an impulse to shake up their worldview whenever I talk to people who seem so sure of everything, be it religious or political or whatever. Especially the unexperienced. I have a BIL who's returning from a mission in December and I'm anticipating some struggle here. I love the kid--he really is a good kid--but I can tell from his emails that I'm going to be biting my tongue a lot.

Very interesting thread. As a father of a current missionary, I think I have a unique perspective on this. My son and I had some long talks about polygamy, priesthood ban, infallibility, etc. so I hope that he has a decent background on these issues. That being said, I kind of cringe at the idea of members taking glee in shocking missionaries. They get enough shit to deal with on a mission that I would hope that most members deal with them from a position of love and support. Even the arrogant ones. After all, they are 19- and 20- year old kids.

[JohnnyLingo]

I don't believe it is God that is coercive. It's probably the Church in practice combined with the individual thoughts of the members.

For example, I'm not planning on being unfaithful to my wife, partly because it would ruin my relationship with her right now, but also because it would have grave consequences on my eternal future (according to Church teachings).

So there's a major disconnect between what God expects of us and what the Church teaches?

[Indy Coug]

I think the Church is potentially the move coercive force in a "faithful" LDS person's life. The thought that one single decision can have eternal consequences has a very significant coercive element to it. I can't think of a more coercive force than one's eternal salvation.

Do you even know what "coercive" means?

coercive - Using force or authority to make a person do something against his or her will

We all have to weigh the pros and cons of anything we do in this life. Lamentably few things in life come with nothing but pros attached to them, and of those few in actuality had fewer pros and more cons than initially thought.

I just see too many people who are willing to outsource the "blame" for their life choices to a "the Devil [church] made me do it" approach.

As soon as you know of an existence where we can make whatever choices we want in a moral vacuum absent any fallout from incorrect decisions, let me know.

[ERCougar]

Very interesting thread. As a father of a current missionary, I think I have a unique perspective on this. My son and I had some long talks about polygamy, priesthood ban, infallibility, etc. so I hope that he has a decent background on these issues. That being said, I kind of cringe at the idea of members taking glee in shocking missionaries. They get enough shit to deal with on a mission that I would hope that most members deal with them from a position of love and support. Even the arrogant ones. After all, they are 19- and 20- year old kids.

I fully admit that this is a bad impulse, which is why I try to suppress it. Regardless of age, any attempt to injure or shake up faith is probably not a good thing. I'm just not very good at not doing it.

[MindfulCoug]

Of course Muhammad also practiced polyandry.

Its certainly a difficult job of keeping a good track of prophet Mohammad's multiple wives ,but for the sake of entertainment ,which wife are you exactly referrring to ?Or it was rather a common practice?

[SeattleUte]

Its certainly a difficult job of keeping a good track of prophet Mohammad's multiple wives ,but for the sake of entertainment ,which wife are you exactly referrring to ?Or it was rather a common practice?

He didn't take any woman formerly married to a follower as his wife? I don't have a name.

[Rosebud]

Do you even know what "coercive" means?

coercive - Using force or authority to make a person do something against his or her will.

I made the word "authority" bold, too.

[falafel]

Do you even know what "coercive" means?

We all have to weigh the pros and cons of anything we do in this life. Lamentably few things in life come with nothing but pros attached to them, and of those few in actuality had fewer pros and more cons than initially thought.

I just see too many people who are willing to outsource the "blame" for their life choices to a "the Devil [church] made me do it" approach.

As soon as you know of an existence where we can make whatever choices we want in a moral vacuum absent any fallout from incorrect decisions, let me know.

Is this directed at me? Thanks for the definition, my google is broken. My opinions have all changed now.

[Art Vandelay]

One of the great quandries of Mormonism or maybe just a spiritual fork in the road. Does the more you learn about the early Saints (capital S, since in many people's minds they hold the same position as tradtional Catholic Saints) in general and Joseph in particular strengthen or weaken your belief in the rest of the church?

Honestly for a long time I had a belief in the church in spite of Joseph not because him. That has gradually changed as the gray hairs have started to outnumber the black. However, there is still much I don't understand, can't explain, and may never be fully allowed to know about The Man, and I'm at peace with that.

[LA Ute]

Are these elders now prepared to deal with this question? I don't know. But at least they won't be thrown totally off guard, if they get asked about it.

On this I agree with you. Missionaries shouldn't be surprised at questions about Joseph Smith. Maybe some MTC time should be devoted to preparing them for such curveballs. (Maybe they already do that in the MTC. Anyone know?)

[The Wankster]

Very interesting thread. As a father of a current missionary, I think I have a unique perspective on this. My son and I had some long talks about polygamy, priesthood ban, infallibility, etc. so I hope that he has a decent background on these issues. That being said, I kind of cringe at the idea of members taking glee in shocking missionaries. They get enough shit to deal with on a mission that I would hope that most members deal with them from a position of love and support. Even the arrogant ones. After all, they are 19- and 20- year old kids.

Interesting, weren't you asking in one of your previous posts what Danimal got the most enjoyment from, the shock of laying a bomb, or the fact they had no response? Interesting indeed.......

[MindfulCoug]

He didn't take any woman formerly married to a follower as his wife? I don't have a name.

He did however marry women who had lost their husbands or divorced with dozens of kids who are mostly older than him.But my understanding says it doesnot fall into polyandry category.