discussing polyandry with the missionaries

[KillerDog]

Plenty of folks on this board know that I support the choice of consenting adults to experiment and write their own rules of sexual propriety. So theoretically I am not against polygamy, polyandry, polyamory, or any other arrangement, so long as every adult involved was well informed of the 'rules' and made the choice following their own free will.

But this isn't what Joseph did. Whatever else people here want to call it, when you have sex with anyone other than your spouse, and your spouse is left to think that you are faithful, this is infidelity.

Joseph Smith practiced infidelity. How does anyone square that circle?

I agree with your position that Joseph was apparently lacking in fidelity to his wife. I don't see how that interferes with his message. Of course, I'm a bit of a crazy man in that way. I thought Clinton was a good president despite his enjoyment of an occasional cigar. I think it is undeniable that Babe Ruth was an excellent long ball hitter and his desire to ball so many women does not detract from that fact. I've never been one to overlook OR blow up the flaws in others or myself.

[UtahDan]

You need to work on your powers of recollection.

Shush. I'm trying to draw Tex out.

[SeattleUte]

I agree with your position that Joseph was apparently lacking in fidelity to his wife. I don't see how that interferes with his message.

It's just ironic that Mormons have come to stand so much for strict, Victorian or Islamic style codes of sexual conduct.

[Indy Coug]

It's just ironic that Mormons have come to stand so much for strict, Victorian or Islamic style codes of sexual conduct.

It's ironic that the nation that went to war over slavery is the freest nation on earth.

[SeattleUte]

Of course Muhammad also practiced polyandry.

[TripletDaddy]

It's ironic that the nation that went to war over slavery is the freest nation on earth.

Why is it "ironic" that a free country go to war over slavery?

I think you mean that it is ironic that a free nation allowed slavery.

[falafel]

Why is it "ironic" that a free country go to war over slavery?

I think you mean that it is ironic that a free nation allowed slavery.

I think he's referring to the part of the country that didn't want to give it up.

[Indy Coug]

Why is it "ironic" that a free country go to war over slavery?

I think you mean that it is ironic that a free nation allowed slavery.

Well obviously, they went to war over it because they allowed it.

[UtahDan]

The coercion card is overplayed and usually is just flat out a false characterization.

I agree with Indy here, it is the wrong word and implies an absence of free will. There is always a choice, though it may be between crappy alternatives.

[TripletDaddy]

Well obviously, they went to war over it because they allowed it.

Yes, but that they went to war was not the ironic part. In fact, there is nothing ironic about it.

It is ironic that a nation that espouses freedom, liberty, etc would allow slavery, however. You don't expect that from a country that promotes the ideologies that we promote.

[Indy Coug]

I agree with Indy here, it is the wrong word and implies an absence of free will. There is always a choice, though it may be between crappy alternatives.

No one coerces me to have a job. No one coerces me to get up before 7AM. No one coerced me to wear conservative business casual wear instead of wearing a "Satan Loves Muslims" t-shirt.

The church is no more coercive than virtually any significant aspect of our lives is. In fact, in most instances, it's less coercive.

[SeattleUte]

It's ironic that the nation that went to war over slavery is the freest nation on earth.

You know, Joseph Smith's sexual predations aren't material to me. There isn't much to say about this beyond what meets the eye. Sexual license seems fairly commonplace though not necessarily inevitable among founders of religious movements (but don't you just KNOW that Paul must have had some sexual issues). In theory, K-Dog might be right that men in that position tend to take extreme sexual liberties, and one who really did talk to God woudn't necessarily be immune.

[Rosebud]

I agree with your position that Joseph was apparently lacking in fidelity to his wife. I don't see how that interferes with his message.

And this bring us full-circle.... now we can start discussing the problems with church PR/correlation intentionally working to convince members of the infallibility of JS, the other latter-day prophets and church doctrine.

[falafel]

The church is no more coercive than virtually any significant aspect of our lives is. In fact, in most instances, it's less coercive.

I think the Church is potentially the move coercive force in a "faithful" LDS person's life. The thought that one single decision can have eternal consequences has a very significant coercive element to it. I can't think of a more coercive force than one's eternal salvation.

[JohnnyLingo]

I think the Church is potentially the move coercive force in a "faithful" LDS person's life. The thought that one single decision can have eternal consequences has a very significant coercive element to it. I can't think of a more coercive force than one's eternal salvation.

I've had this discussion, but is it the Church or God that is being so coercive? If you believe the Church to be His, then you really believe He is coercing you, not the brethren.

Unless, of course, you separate out the coercive elements of the faith as being the acts of men and not divinely inspired.