Whose fault? Yours or the church's?

[UtahDan]

For 11 witnesses?

I think you are both right. The plates were not necessary for "translation" (which is probably the wrong word) but they were necessary for something and it may be just what you suggest.

[Taq Man]

For 11 witnesses?

As Martin Harris said Indy, they saw the plates with their "Spiritual Eyes" Not their actual eyes.

[Indy Coug]

I think you are both right. The plates were not necessary for "translation" (which is probably the wrong word) but they were necessary for something and it may be just what you suggest.

Even if they ultimately weren't necessary for Joseph Smith to translate, it's entirely possible they were necessary for him initially until he developed the "faith" or acquired the operational know-how to progress beyond that point.

[Indy Coug]

As Martin Harris said Indy, they saw the plates with their "Spiritual Eyes" Not their actual eyes.

I'm not interested in debating this with you. I already know where you stand.

[UtahDan]

Even if they ultimately weren't necessary for Joseph Smith to translate, it's entirely possible they were necessary for him initially until he developed the "faith" or acquired the operational know-how to progress beyond that point.

I think that is perfectly plausible.

[Taq Man]

Even if they ultimately weren't necessary for Joseph Smith to translate, it's entirely possible they were necessary for him initially until he developed the "faith" or acquired the operational know-how to progress beyond that point.

The Nephites went to an incredible amount of trouble and expense to make the plates available for Jospeh. Moroni lugged them halfway across North America.

It seems like a lot of work for the Nephites to go through to be of such little need for Joseph.

[Indy Coug]

The Nephites went to an incredible amount of trouble and expense to make the plates available for Jospeh. Moroni lugged them halfway across North America.

It seems like a lot of work for the Nephites to go through to be of such little need for Joseph.

There's still a large portion of the plates left to be translated. Who knows what the future purpose(s) will be?

[Taq Man]

There's still a large portion of the plates left to be translated. Who knows what the future purpose(s) will be?

Fair enough.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Sorry Jarid, I got to Indy's post and responded before reading the thread through.

No problem. I like to rib people who share brainwaves with me. It is probably not a pleasant experience for them for the most part

[Tex]

Because putting a stone in a hat was a common practice for glass lookers, Joseph had been taught the technique by Sally Chase (Joseph's neighbor), and Joseph had found his favorite stone by having its location revealed to him while looking in another stone.

Most of the Book of Mormon wasn't translated with the U & T, but that story seems less enmeshed in folk magic. It probably isn't (autumnal equinox, anyone?), but it seems more palatable to the correlation folks who have pushed it over the stone in hat accounts (which are credible and from faithful sources like Martin Harris, David Whitmer, and members of the Smith family).

Both stories are odd to today's ears, but the stone in hat story is more obviously neck deep in folk magic. The U & T story has ties to the Old Testament (and to the remains of its magic traditions--like Joseph's divination cup--for those who go searching), and is easier to finesse.

Sorry, where is the study from which this conclusion is drawn?

[CardiacCoug]

There's still a large portion of the plates left to be translated. Who knows what the future purpose(s) will be?

You really believe that? Wow -- that takes a lot of [totally irrational] faith to believe something like that. Incredible.

[Indy Coug]

You really believe that? Wow -- that takes a lot of [totally irrational] faith to believe something like that. Incredible.

No, you're right, I believe all of the Book of Mormon except for the part that talks about it.

[All-American]

You really believe that? Wow -- that takes a lot of [totally irrational] faith to believe something like that. Incredible.

See, here it is again. Of all the things to get hung up on, these little quibbles aren't so great.

You'll believe that God and Jesus appear to a kid in the forest, angels pop in and out of his room at night and hand him gold plates from which he translates an ancient record, et cetera . . . and all that sounded good. But SEALED plates? Reading it from a HAT? That's just the straw that breaks the camel's back, friend.

[Babs]

Maybe some of the women on the board need to start using male models as avatars..... that might do something about the dearth of "chicks" around here.

we have before. I did a whole series of Calvin Klein underwear models. And Soup went with a very easy-on-the-eyes young swimmer, as I recall.

And this is NOT a "dearth" of chicks, btw. We've finally cracked the double digits - this is a veritable plethora!

[Sleeping in EQ]

Sorry, where is the study from which this conclusion is drawn?

Here are some of the sources for my thinking on this:

"Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he [my husband] used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color."

--Emma Smith Bidamon to Smma S. Pilgrim, March 27, 1876, RLDS Library-Archives.



"By fervent prayer and by otherwise humbling himself, the prophet, however, again found favor, and was presented with a strange, oval-shaped, chocolate-colored stone, about the size of an egg, only more flat, which it was promised should serve the same purpose as the missing urim and thummim....With this stone all of the present Book of Mormon was translated."

--David Whitmer interview in the Omaha Herald, October 17, 1886


"One of Joseph's aids in searching out the truths of the [Book of Mormon] was a peculiar pebble or rock which he called a seer stone, and which was sometimes used by him in lieu of the Urim and Thummim."

--George Q. Cannon, Life of Joseph Smith, p. 56


"The seer stone referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in company with his brother Hyrum, for a Mr. Clark Chase, near Palmyra, N.Y. It posessed the qualities of Urim and Thummim, since by means of it--as described above--as well as by means of the Interpreters found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates."

--B. H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of the Church 1:129 (and quoted other places in Roberts' works)


"It should pose no religious difficulty that Joseph's seer stone of his youth was later applied to the higher use of inspired translation of the Book of Mormon."

--Richard L. Anderson, "The Mature Joseph Smith and Treasure Searching," p. 537


See also Dan Peterson's comments in the American Experience/Frontline documentary The Mormons.

I find it interesting that those who witnessed the translation are much more specific about Joseph using the chocolate-colored stone to translate the current BoM, and that others' comments have some rhetorical slippage, probably from the convoluted use of Urim & Thummim, seer stone, Gazelem, etc in the early Church. It also appears that Whitmer was unaware of Joseph's long time ownership of the chocolate-colored stone.

There was some conversation in the 19th century Church about this chocolate colored stone being "Gazelem" from Alma 37:23. There was also discussion that Joseph Smith Jr., was "Gazelem." If there's interest, I'll do a post on this topic.