Whose fault? Yours or the church's?

[Jarid in Cedar]

But you can see how when the claims were new it made a difference to have the testimonials of these people who were still around and among the saints, right? I think the only question is whether they saw them in the sense you and I are looking at our computer screens or whether they saw them with the "eyes of their understanding" as David Whitmer later claimed.

Tough to argue with one of the witnesses. Harris made the same comment as well. It is funny how we(meaning all of us) cherry-pick the comments to fit how we see the world.

[UtahDan]

Tough to argue with one of the witnesses. Harris made the same comment as well. It is funny how we(meaning all of us) cherry-pick the comments to fit how we see the world.

I have thought for sometime that there were so many different things said by authorities over time, particularly in the early church, that you can find authority for a huge variety of propositions depending on the flavor you prefer.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I have thought for sometime that there were so many different things said by authorities over time, particularly in the early church, that you can find authority for a huge variety of propositions depending on the flavor you prefer.

It all really does come down to whether you put your faith in your brain, your heart, or the words/actions of others, or a comination of all(then you are really screwed up)

[LA Ute]

As Martin Harris said Indy, they saw the plates with their "Spiritual Eyes" Not their actual eyes.

Just to clarify what you are saying: Are you limiting this to the Three Witnesses, or are you saying none of the 11 witnesses saw the plates? If so, how do you square that with the Eight Witnesses' testimony?

as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted . . . .

I really am just wondering. Did some of them later say, "Well, it really wasn't quite like that?"

[Jarid in Cedar]

Just to clarify what you are saying: Are you limiting this to the Three Witnesses, or are you saying none of the 11 witnesses saw the plates? If so, how do you square that with the Eight Witnesses' testimony?

as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted . . . .

I really am just wondering. Did some of them later say, "Well, it really wasn't quite like that?"

IIRC David Whitmer made the statement that he saw them within a spiritual sense. I will Try to find the exact quote.

[SCcoug]

IIRC David Whitmer made the statement that he saw them within a spiritual sense. I will Try to find the exact quote.

I think I've heard that somewhere too but he was one of the 3 witnesses. LA was asking about the 8.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/eghtwtns

[Jarid in Cedar]

I think I've heard that somewhere too but he was one of the 3 witnesses. LA was asking about the 8.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/eghtwtns

I stand corrected. I have a few books with some info on this topic that I need to peruse again.

[UtahDan]

IIRC David Whitmer made the statement that he saw them within a spiritual sense. I will Try to find the exact quote.

SIEQ could probably tell us off the top of his head, but I am pterry certain from having looked before that Whitmer said BOTH things and it is not really a gradual shift from one to the other. He just flat out described it differently at different times and went back and forth as to whether it was a vision. He was not consistent on that point, but always was consistent about having seen the plates. He is problematic for statements like this:

"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon," wrote Whitmer, "if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so it should be done unto them.'"

The 11 are interesting in that as players in the church they are all snuffed out at or about the time Joseph dies. Christian Witmer had already passed, but almost certainly would have apostatized with his father and brothers, all of whom had left by then never to return (thats 5 witnesses there), Harris has already apostatized never to return, Oliver is gone for the next 10+ years and Joseph, Hyrum and Samuel Smith all die. Hyrum Page alone made it west. I've said before that I wish someone who do an in depth treatment of how the church changes at that point to the church of that practical and tough Brigham and his men and away from the visionary church led by Joseph. There is just flatly a very different group in charge when they reach Salt Lake and almost none of the early leadership is still around (Rigdon, Bennett, Law, Marsh, McLellin, Boynton, Johnson are all apostles/counselors who apostatize...there may be others). I offer that as something that is just interesting to me, not as evidence of anything.

[Solon]

I wish someone who do an in depth treatment of how the church changes at that point to the church of that practical and tough Brigham and his men and away from the visionary church led by Joseph. There is just flatly a very different group in charge when they reach Salt Lake and almost none of the early leadership is still around (Rigdon, Bennett, Law, Marsh, McLellin, Boynton, Johnson are all apostles/counselors who apostatize...there may be others). I offer that as something that is just interesting to me, not as evidence of anything.

I think Quinn's Mormon Hierarchy books (vol 1: Origins of Power and vol. 2: Extensions of Power are the best things out there that treat this topic.

Does anyone know of a better one?

[TripletDaddy]

SIEQ could probably tell us off the top of his head, but I am pterry certain from having looked before that Whitmer said BOTH things and it is not really a gradual shift from one to the other. He just flat out described it differently at different times and went back and forth as to whether it was a vision. He was not consistent on that point, but always was consistent about having seen the plates. He is problematic for statements like this:



The 11 are interesting in that as players in the church they are all snuffed out at or about the time Joseph dies. Christian Witmer had already passed, but almost certainly would have apostatized with his father and brothers, all of whom had left by then never to return (thats 5 witnesses there), Harris has already apostatized never to return, Oliver is gone for the next 10+ years and Joseph, Hyrum and Samuel Smith all die. Hyrum Page alone made it west. I've said before that I wish someone who do an in depth treatment of how the church changes at that point to the church of that practical and tough Brigham and his men and away from the visionary church led by Joseph. There is just flatly a very different group in charge when they reach Salt Lake and almost none of the early leadership is still around (Rigdon, Bennett, Law, Marsh, McLellin, Boynton, Johnson are all apostles/counselors who apostatize...there may be others). I offer that as something that is just interesting to me, not as evidence of anything.

Martin Harris returned to the Church in the last years of his life. He relocated back to Utah and was re-baptized. He was broke, the Church raised some cash, he accepted it, and he moved him back to the 'Tah from Nauvoo.

Martin's quotes definitely were inconsistent at best....waffling back and forth between "spiritual eyes" and "natural eyes." However, much of his waffling was during his period of apostasy after the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society. Of course, this does not automatically discount his assertions that the he never saw the plates.

In Early Mormon Documents 2:290-292, Martin Harris, in an interview with David B. Dille, says that he "had held the forty- to sixty-pound plates on his knee for an hour-and-a-half and handled the plates with [his] hands, plate after plate."

Also in Early Mormon Documents 2:390, in an interview with Robert Barter: Martin Harris seems to confirm that he had seen the plates and the angel with his natural eyes: "Gentlemen," holding out his hand, "do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the Angel and the plates."

Finally, around 1871 (I believe), Martin Harris says "No man heard me in any way deny the truth of the Book of Mormon [or] the administration of the angel that showed me the plates...." This is taken from Early Mormon Documents 2: 338, but originally found in a letter to Hanna B. Emerson, January 1871, Smithfield, Utah Territory, Saints' Herald 22 (15 October 1875):630.

Unfortunately, LDS historical records seem to bear out that, overall, Martin Harris lacked credibility. He changed his story so many times (as well as changing religions so many times in his life) that he would be one of the last people I would call to the stand if I were looking for a Marissa Tomei "My Cousin Vinny" moment in the trial of the 11 witnesses.

[UtahDan]

DDD, you are right of course. Martin did come back, I misspoke.

It certainly would have been easier had a couple more of them been more firm throughout their lives. In the end I think it sill comes down to whether you believe Joseph's testimony. The other witnesses who lived, on the whole, would be nigh unto worthless in court, but that is sort of beside the point I suppose.

[TripletDaddy]

IIRC David Whitmer made the statement that he saw them within a spiritual sense. I will Try to find the exact quote.

Are you thinking of Martin Harris? He definitely said that to John H Gilbert. It can be found in Early Mormon Documents 2:548. ""Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye."

I find it interesting that David Whitmer, despite his Whitmerite misadventures, had his BOM testimony engraved on his headstone when he died. In my mind, that certainly "speaks volumes" as to his belief in the veracity of the plates...and the Book of Mormon.

[UtahDan]

Are you thinking of Martin Harris? He definitely said that to John H Gilbert. It can be found in Early Mormon Documents 2:548. ""Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye."

I find it interesting that David Whitmer, despite his Whitmerite misadventures, had his BOM testimony engraved on his headstone when he died. In my mind, that certainly "speaks volumes" as to his belief in the veracity of the plates...and the Book of Mormon.

Look in wiki article on Whitmer. It has at least one "spiritual eyes" quote. Of course, as with everything, it is second hand so who knows.

EDIT: I have not read it, but Grant Palmer apparently talks about this in depth in "Insider's View."

[TripletDaddy]

DDD, you are right of course. Martin did come back, I misspoke.

It certainly would have been easier had a couple more of them been more firm throughout their lives. In the end I think it sill comes down to whether you believe Joseph's testimony. The other witnesses who lived, on the whole, would be nigh unto worthless in court, but that is sort of beside the point I suppose.

No worries, UtahDan. sorry if it came across as a "gotcha." It just so happens that I am right in the middle of prepping my upcoming EQ lesson. The topic is The Importance of Friendship, which is a totally yawner. I decided to spend a portion of time doing a tribute to the ending of Animal House....a sort of "where are they now" compendium of some of Joseph's closest "friends." Whatever became of Oliver, Martin, Whitmer, Rigdon, WW Phelps, Emma, et al.....So I am actually up to my ears in these inconsistent quotes of many of the Witnesses.

Ultimately, you are correct. It comes to down to whether you believe what Joseph says. Although I would point out that for so many of these men that left the Church (or, more accurately, were kicked out) under such bitter circumstances.......you would think that more of them would have renounced the BoM and their accounts. To me, that is also a very strong bit of indicia that some folks do not seem to want to address when attacking the credibility of the Witness accounts.

[ERCougar]

No worries, UtahDan. sorry if it came across as a "gotcha." It just so happens that I am right in the middle of prepping my upcoming EQ lesson. The topic is The Importance of Friendship, which is a totally yawner. I decided to spend a portion of time doing a tribute to the ending of Animal House....a sort of "where are they now" compendium of some of Joseph's closest "friends." Whatever became of Oliver, Martin, Whitmer, Rigdon, WW Phelps, Emma, et al.....So I am actually up to my ears in these inconsistent quotes of many of the Witnesses.

I don't mean to pick on you, but I've been thinking about this in connection to the Sunday School thread I started, and you just gave me an excuse to post. I've heard people claim on here that they love primary because of it's simplicity, it's back-to-the-basics focus. Yet now you're calling a lesson on friendship, which I would consider to be high up there on the list of Christian virtues (and one I'm far from mastering), a "yawner".

I don't doubt your capacity to make this kind of lesson interesting, insightful, and most of all, applicable. But I worry that demanding, even under our breaths, these kinds of lessons from your average GD teacher just invites disaster. What I really want from a teacher is applicability, the kind of deep thought into basic Gospel principles and living that will make me a better person. I want to know how I can be a better friend and all the barriers that stop me from doing it. I'll discuss the various witness accounts on here, where I know everyone's interested and I can speak freely. If I'm going to Church, I want to leave a little better person than I came; otherwise, I'm wasting my time.