Question regarding the church and education

[smokymountainrain]

This may be a question directed primarily to SU and others who may feel similarly...

If I understand correctly, SU (and possibly others here - I hate to single him out) theorizes - to put it simply - that the more education one obtains, the more likely he or she is to conclude that the LDS church/gospel is a farce. Am I correct in that assertion?

I was listening to a talk the other day by a GA that centered around gaining an education.

In this talk - and it is consistent with what I've seen throughout the church - the GA gave statistics pointing out that as one advances in education (bachelors degree, masters, PHD), he makes a certain amount more money on average than if he were to stop somewhere along the way - this can't be argued. He then mentioned, and this part is what struck me, that the more education one obtains, the more likely he is to have a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel.

What do you all think?

Is the church and this GA up in the night? The church, for as long as I've been alive has encouraged it's members to obtain as much education as possible. By encouraging this, is the church simply encouraging it's members to eventually apostatize?

[Jarid in Cedar]

This may be a question directed primarily to SU and others who may feel similarly...

If I understand correctly, SU (and possibly others here - I hate to single him out) theorizes - to put it simply - that the more education one obtains, the more likely he or she is to conclude that the LDS church/gospel is a farce. Am I correct in that assertion?

I was listening to a talk the other day by a GA that centered around gaining an education.

In this talk - and it is consistent with what I've seen throughout the church - the GA gave statistics pointing out that as one advances in education (bachelors degree, masters, PHD), he makes a certain amount more money on average than if he were to stop somewhere along the way - this can't be argued. He then mentioned, and this part is what struck me, that the more education one obtains, the more likely he is to have a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel.

What do you all think?

Is the church and this GA up in the night? The church, for as long as I've been alive has encouraged it's members to obtain as much education as possible. By encouraging this, is the church simply encouraging it's members to eventually apostatize?

I don't think that the parallels are to level of education per se, but your willingness to question authority in an open manner. In scientific fields, we are taught that today's answers are one study away from beling invalid. This is why science and its applied "truths" are always being revisited, reexamined and ultimately overturned. To be a true scientist, you need to be skeptical of what you are taught, poke at it, try to disprove it. When you start transferring that mindset to religion, it gets dicey. Religious beliefs are not very fluid for the most part, and any questioning really upsets the status quo.

[CardiacCoug]

The LDS Church is unusual in that better-educated LDS people tend to be more religiously active then less-educated LDS people. I believe that in most other churches the opposite trend exists -- that religious activity decreases with a higher level of education.

I'm not sure what the explanation for that phenomenon would be. I think it has something to do with a lay clergy and the fact that many of the most capable and best-educated LDS people end up receiving a lot of responsibility in the Church and that this responsibility helps cultivate their commitment despite some doubts.

The fact that an LDS identity (more than most other religions) constitutes a large portion of the cultural and social fabric of many educated church members also probably plays a role in maintaining religious activity despite a high educational level.

I also think it's a little difficult for less well-educated LDS people to organize and discipline their lives in such a way as to maintain activity. It's not easy to pay tithing, commit time to Sunday meetings and weekday activities, etc. People who either can't or won't commit to receiving much education probably have a difficult time committing to maintaining the stringent "active LDS" norms as well.

[smokymountainrain]

I don't think that the parallels are to level of education per se, but your willingness to question authority in an open manner. In scientific fields, we are taught that today's answers are one study away from beling invalid. This is why science and its applied "truths" are always being revisited, reexamined and ultimately overturned. To be a true scientist, you need to be skeptical of what you are taught, poke at it, try to disprove it. When you start transferring that mindset to religion, it gets dicey. Religious beliefs are not very fluid for the most part, and any questioning really upsets the status quo.

Would it be fair to say the more education/knowledge/intellect (whatever the hell the term is) one gains, the more likely he is to question religion - to poke at it and try to disprove it?

[TripletDaddy]

I agree with the General Authority (and also the scriptures). Whatever principle of intelligence we gain in this life will be to our advantage.

As we learn in the temple, all truth is circumscribed into one great whole. So, if you are a believer in the teaching of the temple, then naturally, the more truths we learn, the more we expand our understanding of that "one great whole." And the more equipped we are to assist others in obtaining knowledge.

In my brief life experience, I have found that therein lies the greatest benefit of wisdom and intelligence.....when used righteously, we employ it to the benefit of our fellow man (and woman).

Similarly, our testimonies grow as we exercise them on behalf of others. Our testimony is part and parcel to the "one great whole" metaphor because our spiritual acumen is really the sumum bonum of all of God's spiritual truths.

Therefore, I strongly believe that the GA was correct...the reason our testimony grows as we obtain more education is because education is truth. And our testimonies simply bear out that which is true.

ps SeattleUte may disagree, citing the errors of men as proof that God does not exist. But, fundamentally, man has not quarreled over the existence of God. The great conflict has been in defining God. Yet His truth is almost universally accepted amongst all believers...that He lives, he loves us, He desires our happiness, and He wishes for us to be with Him. The attempts to define God is minutae in the grand scheme of things. Does it really matter that much how the Bible is translated, as much as it matters that we love everyone, strive for service, and learn humility? That is the good stuff right there. The rest.....details.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Would it be fair to say the more education/knowledge/intellect (whatever the hell the term is) one gains, the more likely he is to question religion - to poke at it and try to disprove it?

I think it depends on your willingness to openly question belief. Some people do and some don't. I think that your field of study may predispose you to that way of thinking in the first place. Personally, I am never satisfied with today's answer's, regardless of what is being addressed. That POV has made me a better doctor, but a poor mormon.

[smokymountainrain]

The LDS Church is unusual in that better-educated LDS people tend to be more religiously active then less-educated LDS people. I believe that in most other churches the opposite trend exists -- that religious activity decreases with a higher level of education.

I'm not sure what the explanation for that phenomenon would be. I think it has something to do with a lay clergy and the fact that many of the most capable and best-educated LDS people end up receiving a lot of responsibility in the Church and that this responsibility helps cultivate their commitment despite some doubts.

The fact that an LDS identity (more than most other religions) constitutes a large portion of the cultural and social fabric of many educated church members also probably plays a role in maintaining religious activity despite a high educational level.

I also think it's a little difficult for less well-educated LDS people to organize and discipline their lives in such a way as to maintain activity. It's not easy to pay tithing, commit time to Sunday meetings and weekday activities, etc. People who either can't or won't commit to receiving much education probably have a difficult time committing to maintaining the stringent "active LDS" norms as well.

I can see that. Perhaps the answer is both yes and no. As you've explained, the church does benefit significantly from members who become well educated. At the same time, the church likely loses it's share of members for the same reason.

[CardiacCoug]

Would it be fair to say the more education/knowledge/intellect (whatever the hell the term is) one gains, the more likely he is to question religion - to poke at it and try to disprove it?

I think there is a rough correlation. But I know plenty of very highly educated people who are totally irrational religious fanatics. Here's one of them, a guy named David Menton:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...s/d_menton.asp

[SeattleUte]

I think there is a difference between getting education at a certain level, say a college degree, and taking a critical approach to life. Now, college is supposed to infuse the discipline of a critical orientation toward life. (I still don't get how that might work at BYU.) But it doesn't always go that way. Poeple believe what they want to believe; a critical orientation isn't for everyone. But most of us are more critical than our ancestors, especially a ways back.

Mormons are, as a percentage, a little more educated than most other Christian religions, as we saw in the Pew study. But this is clearly misleading. Most Mormons are also Western American, northern European stock, which has eaten the fruits of European and US wealth and dominance for centuries. It's a fairly homogenous, insular group. Note also that Mormon converts tend to be among the most uneducated, and poor.

However (roll the drums, here comes a compliment to Mormonism), there does seem to be a strong work ethic and industriousness in Mormonsim (Max Weber would say, "Of course! A protestant work ethic"). This translates into pursuit of higher education to a relatively high degree. But I submit Mormons excel most in business and the professions.

Intellectualism is very lame in Mormonism, even, as we've seen here tonight, stigmatized. An intellectual, critical approach to life is what erodes faith in religion. I've seen people with college degrees who traveled all over the world who still see life through their own limited prism. Like that relative who once said to me that the Catholic Church forced Michelangelo to paint all those "Catholic pictures." It's a choice, fundamentally.

Sometimes you can take the boy out of the country but you can't take the country out of the boy. Mormonism's mission is to keep the country in the boy. It's been pretty succesful at that. I wonder how long it can last.

[SeattleUte]

I agree with the General Authority (and also the scriptures). Whatever principle of intelligence we gain in this life will be to our advantage.

As we learn in the temple, all truth is circumscribed into one great whole. So, if you are a believer in the teaching of the temple, then naturally, the more truths we learn, the more we expand our understanding of that "one great whole." And the more equipped we are to assist others in obtaining knowledge.

In my brief life experience, I have found that therein lies the greatest benefit of wisdom and intelligence.....when used righteously, we employ it to the benefit of our fellow man (and woman).

Similarly, our testimonies grow as we exercise them on behalf of others. Our testimony is part and parcel to the "one great whole" metaphor because our spiritual acumen is really the sumum bonum of all of God's spiritual truths.

Therefore, I strongly believe that the GA was correct...the reason our testimony grows as we obtain more education is because education is truth. And our testimonies simply bear out that which is true.

ps SeattleUte may disagree, citing the errors of men as proof that God does not exist. But, fundamentally, man has not quarreled over the existence of God. The great conflict has been in defining God. Yet His truth is almost universally accepted amongst all believers...that He lives, he loves us, He desires our happiness, and He wishes for us to be with Him. The attempts to define God is minutae in the grand scheme of things. Does it really matter that much how the Bible is translated, as much as it matters that we love everyone, strive for service, and learn humility? That is the good stuff right there. The rest.....details.

Platitudes. You're not saying anything here.

[smokymountainrain]

I think there is a difference between getting education at a certain level, say a college degree, and taking a critical approach to life. Now, college is supposed to infuse the discipline of a critical orientation toward life. (I still don't get how that might work at BYU.) But it doesn't always go that way. Poeple believe what they want to believe; a critical orientation isn't for everyone. But most of us are more critical than our ancestors, especially a ways back.

Mormons are, as a percentage, a little more educated than most other Christian religions, as we saw in the Pew study. But this is clearly misleading. Most Mormons are also Western American, northern European stock, which has eaten the fruits of European and US wealth and dominance for centuries. It's a fairly homogenous, insular group. Note also that Mormon converts tend to be among the most uneducated, and poor.

However (roll the drums, here comes a compliment to Mormonism), there does seem to be a strong work ethic and industriousness in Mormonsim (Max Weber would say, "Of course! A protestant work ethic"). This translates into pursuit of higher education to a relatively high degree. But I submit Mormons excel most in business and the professions.

Intellectualism is very lame in Mormonism, even, as we've seen here tonight, stigmatized. An intellectual, critical approach to life is what erodes faith in religion. I've seen people with college degrees who traveled all over the world who still see life through their own limited prism. Like that relative who once said to me that the Catholic Church forced Michelangelo to paint all those "Catholic pictures." It's a choice, fundamentally.

Sometimes you can take the boy out of the country but you can't take the country out of the boy. Mormonism's mission is to keep the country in the boy. It's been pretty succesful at that. I wonder how long it can last.

Thanks SU. I'm not smart enough to respond to that, but I think you make some great points and I appreciate your insight. Seriously.

I think JIC's thoughts were similar. Very interesting perspectives.

[SeattleUte]

Thanks SU. I'm not smart enough to respond to that, but I think you make some great points and I appreciate your insight. Seriously.

I think JIC's thoughts were similar. Very interesting perspectives.

Thanks for your acknowledgement. I always just aim to help.

[il Padrino Ute]

Sometimes you can take the boy out of the country but you can't take the country out of the boy. Mormonism's mission is to keep the country in the boy. It's been pretty succesful at that. I wonder how long it can last.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle country folk. Some of the most idiotic people I've ever encountered were born, raised and educated in the city. I would say that they are equally backward and closed minded than country folk.

[SeattleUte]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle country folk. Some of the most idiotic people I've ever encountered were born, raised and educated in the city. I would say that they are equally backward and closed minded than country folk.

It was just an illustration of my point. I have nothing against hillbillies.

[il Padrino Ute]

It was just an illustration of my point. I have nothing against hillbillies.

Fair enough. Nor do I have a problem with city dwelling troglodytes.