Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[ByronMarchant]

I read the PFS article. What I'm interested in is why it's such a big deal that the GA's salaries don't come from tithing. Why is that, and why does the church spokesperson stress it? They are ecclesiastical leaders, certainly not employees of the business side of the church. Why wouldn't they be paid from tithing money? Does that not go over well with tithe-paying members?

They just don't want to be perceived as taking money from the poor. That's a good thing.

My biggest problem with tithing is not that some fraction of the money goes to the GAs--either directly or indirectly. It's that a 10% tax is a flat tax and therefore most burdensome on the poorest of the poor Mormons, and least burdensome on the richest. It seems so wrong to tax the poor in order for them to receive temple blessing when their tithes ought to be spent on food and medicine.

[Topper]

They just don't want to be perceived as taking money from the poor. That's a good thing.

My biggest problem with tithing is not that some fraction of the money goes to the GAs--either directly or indirectly. It's that a 10% tax is a flat tax and therefore most burdensome on the poorest of the poor Mormons, and least burdensome on the richest. It seems so wrong to tax the poor in order for them to receive temple blessing when their tithes ought to be spent on food and medicine.

We wouldn't want there to be any reason for you to believe the Church isn't regressive, after all.

[Omaha 680]

True or False:

Mormon Apostles receive additional compensation for serving on corporate boards (e.g., Deseret Book, Beneficial Financial Group, Ensign Peak Advisors, Zion Securities, Deseret Publishing, Ag Reserves, Bonneville International, and so on).

I don't know the answer. Just throwing it out there.

True or False: Apostles are required to pay 50% tithing on all their church compensation. I don't know the answer. Just throwing it out there.

[Jeff Lebowski]

And so, it would appear that the Church is indeed true, even though Joseph Smith almost became a Methodist 8 years after the first vision.

In any case, it still doesn't change the fact that Joseph Smith tried to become a methodist 8 years after Jesus and God supposedly appeared to him and told him to not join any other Church.

The first vision at age 14--the canonized one. Joseph tried to become a Methodist 8 years after Jesus told him not to.

All originating from visions purportedly received by a 14-year-old boy, who later tried to become a Methodist despite the fact that Jesus Christ himself told him at age 14 not to join any other church (ballsy of him).

But would you attempt to become a methodist after Jesus Christ himself came down and told you not to? Gutsy!

Although he apparently didn't go through with it, so I'll give him that. Maybe he had wondered at times whether it was really Jesus that appeared to him.

So 8 years after the first vision would be what? 1828? Meh. That wouldn't surprise me at all.

There is nothing related to the concept of a restoration until well after the church was organized in 1830. Restoration doesn't really get discussed in church documents until 1834-35. At that point there was retroactive discussion of priesthood restoration happening in June 1829, but there is evidence it could not have happened prior to July 1830 (Quinn and Bushman argue this). There is nothing in the BOM about a restoration of priesthood or the church. Ditto for the first 65 sections of the D&C.

For example, Section 10 of the D&C was revealed in 1828. Note verses 52-55:

52 And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up.

53 And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.

54 Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church;

55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Note the bolded part. This was in 1828. The "church" referenced here is the body of christ, which is consistent with the standard protestant view of things. This is echoed by the entire theology of the BOM. The sole requirements for "membership" in God's church are faith, belief, repentance, etc. The concept of a church/priesthood restoration wasn't fully fleshed out until the late 1830's, which is when the longer version of the First Vision you reference was recorded.

Surprised you didn't know this stuff.

[ByronMarchant]

So 8 years after the first vision would be what? 1828? Meh. That wouldn't surprise me at all.

There is nothing related to the concept of a restoration until well after the church was organized in 1830. Restoration doesn't really get discussed in church documents until 1834-35. At that point there was retroactive discussion of priesthood restoration happening in June 1829, but there is evidence it could not have happened prior to July 1830 (Quinn and Bushman argue this). There is nothing in the BOM about a restoration of priesthood or the church. Ditto for the first 65 sections of the D&C.

For example, Section 10 of the D&C was revealed in 1828. Note verses 52-55:



Note the bolded part. This was in 1828. The "church" referenced here is the body of christ, which is consistent with the standard protestant view of things. This is echoed by the entire theology of the BOM. The sole requirements for "membership" in God's church are faith, belief, repentance, etc. The concept of a church/priesthood restoration wasn't fully fleshed out until the late 1830's, which is when the longer version of the First Vision you reference was recorded.

Surprised you didn't know this stuff.

Maybe we should all be protestants instead of Mormons. Life would be simpler. Church finances would be public. Wouldn't need a Mormon Leaks web site. And we could wear whatever underwear we want.

[Topper]

Maybe we should all be protestants instead of Mormons. Life would be simpler. Church finances would be public. Wouldn't need a Mormon Leaks web site. And we could wear whatever underwear we want.

Go ahead, start your own Church. You can be a Protestant and have publicly transparent finances. You got it all figured out.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Maybe we should all be protestants instead of Mormons. Life would be simpler. Church finances would be public. Wouldn't need a Mormon Leaks web site. And we could wear whatever underwear we want.

I am totally happy being a mormon!

You should come back, brother. Our underwear is comfy.

[CJF]

Restoration of the Priesthood was May 15th. The second best thing to happen on a May 15th.

[ByronMarchant]

Restoration of the Priesthood was May 15th. The second best thing to happen on a May 15th.

Let me guess--Is that Donald Trump's b-day?

[CJF]

Let me guess--Is that Donald Trump's b-day?

Why would you guess that?

[ByronMarchant]

I am totally happy being a mormon!

You should come back, brother. Our underwear is comfy.

I know. I am in my garments right now. I like that they don't ride up.

[Pelado]

You asked which first vision. I answered. I'm just saying--he tried to become a Methodist after Jesus told him not to. That's pretty bad. I would do whatever Jesus told me to do.

Really? Maybe you didn't get the memo. Jesus said love everyone - treat them kindly, too.

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[Moliere]

Really? Maybe you didn't get the memo. Jesus said love everyone - treat them kindly, too.

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Actually, he didn't really say that


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[Clark Addison]

Restoration of the Priesthood was May 15th. The second best thing to happen on a May 15th.

My first born son appreciates the mention of his birthday, CJF.

[Green Monstah]

Base living allowance for Seventy = 120K. Not counting performance bonuses, retirement, or stock.

Base living allowance for an apostle = ? Book deals. Free cars. Free insurance. Stock. That said, the base salary is impressively modest. Major props to the GAs for that.

And so, it would appear that the Church is indeed true, even though Joseph Smith almost became a Methodist 8 years after the first vision.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the criteria for performance bonuses: 1. "Use of three or more clauses to describe Jesus Christ in the closing phrase of a general conference prayer: $2,000 2. Wife maintaining a manageably short haircut and impeccably white teeth: $1,000. 3. Ambiguous insinuations that you've seen Jesus: $5,000. 4. Quoting any political statement by President Benson during a talk: -$500 per instance."