Question for unbelievers

[taekwondave]

For my fellow unbelieving brethren and sisters on CS, I have a different question:

While still accepting/believing that the church is NOT true, but knowing that church CAN be a great way to connect with your neighbors and build friendships and even have a little fun sometimes, what would the church need to do in order for you to feel comfortable going back and participating again? Is there anything, or does the fact that you don't believe in it anymore make any changes it could make a moot point to you?

For me it would be some portion of the following:

1. Stop stigmatizing sex and homosexuality. I would be ok with teaching that premarital sex is dangerous and should be treated seriously and that extramarital sex is just wrong, but the focus on sex is too great and has to change. Stop obsessing over women's modesty. Stop obsessing over porn. I think it does very little good and very much harm, especially to teenagers and homosexuals, and I'm not ok with it.

2. Put windows on the bishop's doors. Nobody should ever be interviewed by a bishop behind a closed door. I would argue that nobody should ever be interviewed by a bishop at all, but I would settle for this. Especially children. With all the Catholic stuff that has gone down I'm actually really surprised the church hasn't taken this one simple step to protect people. They teach missionaries not to pick up children and not to teach women alone, I'm surprised this directive hasn't been given to bishops as well.

3. Remove worthiness tests for temple participation. If there really are people on the other side of the veil waiting for their work to be done, I doubt they give two shits about whether you are worthy to be there or not. I'm sure myriad people have entered the temple unworthily before. I don't see the church backtracking and canceling the temple work they did for the dead when they find that out, so obviously those ordinances are valid regardless. So open the doors to everybody. I liked the temple. I liked the quiet it offered, and I even liked the weirdness. It put me in the zone. It seems like a great tool Mormons have at their disposal to meditate and gain perspective and improve their lives but they won't let you in unless you're worthy. What's the saying? "The healthy need no physician, but they that are sick." But I would settle for this: let anyone who wants to attend, attend their family and friends' temple sealing. No loved one should ever have to miss something that big. It's just a dick move to keep them outside. If this church is really about families, prove it.

4. Get rid of or drastically change testimony meeting. I'm not interested in sitting through a group brainwashing session where everyone repeats what they believe with the highly manipulative and misleading term "I know." Boyd K. Packer's "Candle of the Lord" is not a pathway to truth, it's a pathway to truth-resistance. I hate that garbage. Testimony meeting, if it's held at all, should be group story time. People get up and share uplifting and encouraging stories, but let the group decide what they are going to take out of it. Don't force feed their minds with "And thus I know blah duh blah duh blah." That's just stupid.

5. Tell the true history of the church, say the church is good and we're all here to try to make it better, but let go of the bullshit that's already been shown to be bullshit. Go ahead and be proud of the church, for what it's become, but go easy on the prophet jargon and authority jargon and all that. Teach that it's ok to disagree with leaders and to examine their decisions and to make your own choices but also teach to be charitable with them, understand they make mistakes, that you may get your turn someday in their shoes and that it will be hard so try to be kind. Think of your leaders the way you would the organist and that should do the trick.

6. Give women the priesthood.

7. Make it 2 hours long.

I'm not sure how much of that would need to happen for me to go back. Maybe all of it, I don't know. But any of them would be a good start.

Any takers?

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

You still want it to be 2 hours? That long list of demands and you're only chipping one hour off?

[falafel]

I'm sort of a semi-believer. Not a TBM, definitely not a non-believer. Cafeteria Mo, I guess.

Anyway, that being said, the list of yours seems ridiculous.

[cougjunkie]

For my fellow unbelieving brethren and sisters on CS, I have a different question:

While still accepting/believing that the church is NOT true, but knowing that church CAN be a great way to connect with your neighbors and build friendships and even have a little fun sometimes, what would the church need to do in order for you to feel comfortable going back and participating again? Is there anything, or does the fact that you don't believe in it anymore make any changes it could make a moot point to you?

For me it would be some portion of the following:

1. Stop stigmatizing sex and homosexuality. I would be ok with teaching that premarital sex is dangerous and should be treated seriously and that extramarital sex is just wrong, but the focus on sex is too great and has to change. Stop obsessing over women's modesty. Stop obsessing over porn. I think it does very little good and very much harm, especially to teenagers and homosexuals, and I'm not ok with it.

2. Put windows on the bishop's doors. Nobody should ever be interviewed by a bishop behind a closed door. I would argue that nobody should ever be interviewed by a bishop at all, but I would settle for this. Especially children. With all the Catholic stuff that has gone down I'm actually really surprised the church hasn't taken this one simple step to protect people. They teach missionaries not to pick up children and not to teach women alone, I'm surprised this directive hasn't been given to bishops as well.

3. Remove worthiness tests for temple participation. If there really are people on the other side of the veil waiting for their work to be done, I doubt they give two shits about whether you are worthy to be there or not. I'm sure myriad people have entered the temple unworthily before. I don't see the church backtracking and canceling the temple work they did for the dead when they find that out, so obviously those ordinances are valid regardless. So open the doors to everybody. I liked the temple. I liked the quiet it offered, and I even liked the weirdness. It put me in the zone. It seems like a great tool Mormons have at their disposal to meditate and gain perspective and improve their lives but they won't let you in unless you're worthy. What's the saying? "The healthy need no physician, but they that are sick." But I would settle for this: let anyone who wants to attend, attend their family and friends' temple sealing. No loved one should ever have to miss something that big. It's just a dick move to keep them outside. If this church is really about families, prove it.

4. Get rid of or drastically change testimony meeting. I'm not interested in sitting through a group brainwashing session where everyone repeats what they believe with the highly manipulative and misleading term "I know." Boyd K. Packer's "Candle of the Lord" is not a pathway to truth, it's a pathway to truth-resistance. I hate that garbage. Testimony meeting, if it's held at all, should be group story time. People get up and share uplifting and encouraging stories, but let the group decide what they are going to take out of it. Don't force feed their minds with "And thus I know blah duh blah duh blah." That's just stupid.

5. Tell the true history of the church, say the church is good and we're all here to try to make it better, but let go of the bullshit that's already been shown to be bullshit. Go ahead and be proud of the church, for what it's become, but go easy on the prophet jargon and authority jargon and all that. Teach that it's ok to disagree with leaders and to examine their decisions and to make your own choices but also teach to be charitable with them, understand they make mistakes, that you may get your turn someday in their shoes and that it will be hard so try to be kind. Think of your leaders the way you would the organist and that should do the trick.

6. Give women the priesthood.

7. Make it 2 hours long.

I'm not sure how much of that would need to happen for me to go back. Maybe all of it, I don't know. But any of them would be a good start.

Any takers?

This is funny to me.

1. You just said homosexuals watch more porn than heterosexuals
2. Windows on bishops doors? Is this for real or are you trying to be funny? I am sure someone who does appreciate the opportunity of confessing to a bishop wants people to peek in and see them crying their eyes out.
3. Good idea, no reason for someone to try and live a worthy life to enter in to the house of God. Makes perfect sense, just let everyone in. What are we here for? Why even strive to be a better person? You can do whatever you want and still reap the same blessings of everyone else. This is like telling the hardest working most talented kid on the football team he is going to split reps with the shit bag who never shows up to practice and hasn't lifted a weight in his life. Because why not? I doubt the other team cares who they go against.
4. Let the group decide what they are going to get out of testimony meeting, don't brainwash them. But let's control what they say during this meeting? You are super bright.
5. Like MBN said earlier, over the next decade this will all continue to come out. Most people won't care and will continue enjoying church.
6. Why?
7. It already is if you do it right.

[taekwondave]

For my fellow unbelieving brethren and sisters on CS, I have a different question:

While still accepting/believing that the church is NOT true, but knowing that church CAN be a great way to connect with your neighbors and build friendships and even have a little fun sometimes, what would the church need to do in order for you to feel comfortable going back and participating again? Is there anything, or does the fact that you don't believe in it anymore make any changes it could make a moot point to you?

For me it would be some portion of the following:

1. Stop stigmatizing sex and homosexuality. I would be ok with teaching that premarital sex is dangerous and should be treated seriously and that extramarital sex is just wrong, but the focus on sex is too great and has to change. Stop obsessing over women's modesty. Stop obsessing over porn. I think it does very little good and very much harm, especially to teenagers and homosexuals, and I'm not ok with it.

2. Put windows on the bishop's doors. Nobody should ever be interviewed by a bishop behind a closed door. I would argue that nobody should ever be interviewed by a bishop at all, but I would settle for this. Especially children. With all the Catholic stuff that has gone down I'm actually really surprised the church hasn't taken this one simple step to protect people. They teach missionaries not to pick up children and not to teach women alone, I'm surprised this directive hasn't been given to bishops as well.

3. Remove worthiness tests for temple participation. If there really are people on the other side of the veil waiting for their work to be done, I doubt they give two shits about whether you are worthy to be there or not. I'm sure myriad people have entered the temple unworthily before. I don't see the church backtracking and canceling the temple work they did for the dead when they find that out, so obviously those ordinances are valid regardless. So open the doors to everybody. I liked the temple. I liked the quiet it offered, and I even liked the weirdness. It put me in the zone. It seems like a great tool Mormons have at their disposal to meditate and gain perspective and improve their lives but they won't let you in unless you're worthy. What's the saying? "The healthy need no physician, but they that are sick." But I would settle for this: let anyone who wants to attend, attend their family and friends' temple sealing. No loved one should ever have to miss something that big. It's just a dick move to keep them outside. If this church is really about families, prove it.

4. Get rid of or drastically change testimony meeting. I'm not interested in sitting through a group brainwashing session where everyone repeats what they believe with the highly manipulative and misleading term "I know." Boyd K. Packer's "Candle of the Lord" is not a pathway to truth, it's a pathway to truth-resistance. I hate that garbage. Testimony meeting, if it's held at all, should be group story time. People get up and share uplifting and encouraging stories, but let the group decide what they are going to take out of it. Don't force feed their minds with "And thus I know blah duh blah duh blah." That's just stupid.

5. Tell the true history of the church, say the church is good and we're all here to try to make it better, but let go of the bullshit that's already been shown to be bullshit. Go ahead and be proud of the church, for what it's become, but go easy on the prophet jargon and authority jargon and all that. Teach that it's ok to disagree with leaders and to examine their decisions and to make your own choices but also teach to be charitable with them, understand they make mistakes, that you may get your turn someday in their shoes and that it will be hard so try to be kind. Think of your leaders the way you would the organist and that should do the trick.

6. Give women the priesthood.

7. Make it 2 hours long.

I'm not sure how much of that would need to happen for me to go back. Maybe all of it, I don't know. But any of them would be a good start.

Any takers?

Thought of another:

8. Pay/reimburse Bishops and Stake Presidents the way they do Mission President/GA's.

[taekwondave]

You still want it to be 2 hours? That long list of demands and you're only chipping one hour off?

Yeah. I like church. 3 hours is just a bit much. One isn't quite enough. I think 2 is the sweet spot.

[taekwondave]

This is funny to me.

1. You just said homosexuals watch more porn than heterosexuals
2. Windows on bishops doors? Is this for real or are you trying to be funny? I am sure someone who does appreciate the opportunity of confessing to a bishop wants people to peek in and see them crying their eyes out.
3. Good idea, no reason for someone to try and live a worthy life to enter in to the house of God. Makes perfect sense, just let everyone in. What are we here for? Why even strive to be a better person? You can do whatever you want and still reap the same blessings of everyone else. This is like telling the hardest working most talented kid on the football team he is going to split reps with the shit bag who never shows up to practice and hasn't lifted a weight in his life. Because why not? I doubt the other team cares who they go against.
4. Let the group decide what they are going to get out of testimony meeting, don't brainwash them. But let's control what they say during this meeting? You are super bright.
5. Like MBN said earlier, over the next decade this will all continue to come out. Most people won't care and will continue enjoying church.
6. Why?
7. It already is if you do it right.

1. I definitely did not MEAN to say that. Where did I say that?
2. I'm not trying to be funny about this. They already sit in a line outside their office. And while it may be ok to have more privacy for adults, it certainly isn't for minors. I would say regarding minors, either have the window, or have the parent present. That's just not an appropriate dynamic.
3. We'll just agree to disagree on that.
4. You don't need to attack me personally. No need to control what people say, necessarily. But it's taught quite often that the only appropriate testimony is one where the person says "I know, xyz." I don't think that's a testimony at all, actually, and I don't think we should encourage it.
5. Cool. I look forward to that. I doubt people won't care. Plenty of people have/are leaving the church over what they are learning about church history, but yeah. I think the truth is a good thing and I hope people embrace it. It would help me come back, that's what I'm saying.
6. Because I think separate but equal or equal but different isn't really equal. I don't think it will hurt to give it to them. Granted, I don't think it's real, but just like I'm glad they gave it to blacks, I would be glad if they gave it to women. Would you ask "why" if someone made a list like this 40 years ago and said "give blacks the priesthood?"
7. Haha, good for you

[taekwondave]

I'm sort of a semi-believer. Not a TBM, definitely not a non-believer. Cafeteria Mo, I guess.

Anyway, that being said, the list of yours seems ridiculous.

All of it?

[BigFatMeanie]

I don't understand why non-believers, who want a church that suits their liking, don't do one of the following:

1. Find an existing church that suits their liking. There are thousands of options out there.
2. Make a new church that suits their liking

Can someone explain to me why non-believers would rather attempt to change a church they don't believe in than do one of the above suggestions? I'm seriously curious about the underlying psychology here.

[old_gregg]

you need to chill dude. maybe get laid.

[Donuthole]

you need to chill dude. maybe get laid.

Super mean post. Just because he's big, fat, and mean doesn't mean he's not pulling tail.

[cougjunkie]

1. I definitely did not MEAN to say that. Where did I say that?
2. I'm not trying to be funny about this. They already sit in a line outside their office. And while it may be ok to have more privacy for adults, it certainly isn't for minors. I would say regarding minors, either have the window, or have the parent present. That's just not an appropriate dynamic.
3. We'll just agree to disagree on that.
4. You don't need to attack me personally. No need to control what people say, necessarily. But it's taught quite often that the only appropriate testimony is one where the person says "I know, xyz." I don't think that's a testimony at all, actually, and I don't think we should encourage it.
5. Cool. I look forward to that. I doubt people won't care. Plenty of people have/are leaving the church over what they are learning about church history, but yeah. I think the truth is a good thing and I hope people embrace it. It would help me come back, that's what I'm saying.
6. Because I think separate but equal or equal but different isn't really equal. I don't think it will hurt to give it to them. Granted, I don't think it's real, but just like I'm glad they gave it to blacks, I would be glad if they gave it to women. Would you ask "why" if someone made a list like this 40 years ago and said "give blacks the priesthood?"
7. Haha, good for you

"Stop obsessing over porn, it does very little good and very much harm. Especially to teenagers and homosexuals."

So homosexuals have more issues with porn than heterosexuals? You probably think they are all pedophiles as well. For a progressive Mormon you sure aren't very progressive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[taekwondave]

I don't understand why non-believers, who want a church that suits their liking, don't do one of the following:

1. Find an existing church that suits their liking. There are thousands of options out there.
2. Make a new church that suits their liking

Can someone explain to me why non-believers would rather attempt to change a church they don't believe in than do one of the above suggestions? I'm seriously curious about the underlying psychology here.

I'll take a crack at that, as a non-believer. First, I am not attempting to change a church I don't believe in. I've left it. I posited the question, what would the church have to do, short of changing your belief, to at least get you interested in participating again. And I made my list.

As for seeking after and finding a church that does all that...well...I live in Utah. I was raised Mormon. My family is Mormon and most of my friends are Mormon. I'm sure you understand tribalism. Mormonism is most definitely my tribe. It is both literally and figuratively my home town. Now, I chose to move, figuratively, out of my hometown, even though I've remained in it literally. I don't detest the church enough to actually move away literally, but I disagree with it enough to move away from it figuratively.

And while you are right that there are THOUSANDS of other religious options, that's not the case in Lehi, Utah. There might be a few others but I have no tie to them. I have no interest in them. And if there is one that really really appeals to me, I have to weigh the real world cost of hauling my family out to it, when for me, the biggest advantage of church, and specifically the mormon church here in utah is how it connects me with the vast majority of my neighbors.

Now, I have other ways to connect with my neighbors and I make use of them, but I admit it would be nice to make use of the church for that purpose as well. But sitting through meetings at a place that says and does the things they say and do is brutal for me and it doesn't interest me.

The whole "If you don't like it move to communist China!" argument doesn't really take reality and logistics into consideration.

[taekwondave]

Super mean post. Just because he's big, fat, and mean doesn't mean he's not pulling tail.

Damn straight

[taekwondave]

"Stop obsessing over porn, it does very little good and very much harm. Especially to teenagers and homosexuals."

So homosexuals have more issues with porn than heterosexuals? You probably think they are all pedophiles as well. For a progressive Mormon you sure aren't very progressive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jesus Christ, bro. That's clearly not what I meant to say. I meant the hyper focus on sex is especially harmful for teenagers and homosexuals. Not porn. Porn is just one more thing they focus on unnecessarily when they hyper focus on sex. Every teenager struggles with sex. Very few of those teenagers are gay and thus, gay teenagers, and gay believers generally, suffer quite a bit more from those teachings because of how alone they feel. Don't twist words to be a dick.

And I'm not a progressive Mormon. I'm a former Mormon.