Simon Magus and Needing a Temple Recommend to Perform Ordinances

[Sleeping in EQ]

Wuap, please don't let yourself become this cynical.

I'm not cynical.

[cougjunkie]

Wuap, I've been mulling over your situation and want to share a few thoughts:

Have you considered that you should not give your Bishop--or the Church for that matter--so much power in your life? They don't understand you, won't understand you, and are caught up in institutional concerns. You are not obligated to seek understanding from those who, despite good intentions, are incapable of providing it. The best you can expect from "good" local leadership is a kind of patronizing tolerance because that's all the HOI provides for. No deeply spiritual adult will thrive in such a situation.

Local leadership has become so HOI driven because they have almost no training, little inherited understanding, and their own lives to conduct. An abundance of guilt, in the form of demands of compliance from above, is sitting on them and while they deserve your pity, and perhaps your empathy, they don't deserve your conformity, explanations, or unswerving loyalty. They can't even listen to you beyond what the HOI allows, and so you're not obligated to seek anything from them.

I think you'd benefit from only giving local leaders and the Church as much as won't hamper you or your family in your spiritual journey. Life's too short to indulge every whim of local leaders and institutional imperatives. Man up and own your spiritual journey. Doing so will help you and your family, and will help you put the Church in a healthy perspective.

2 cents.

As always thoughtful.

Not that you SIEQ advocated the following. However, the teflon approach is valuable from my perspective. Wuap will not change the impersonal bureaucracy, nor those imperfect beings who populate it, so learning to ignore the imperfections may be the best approach. I am uncertain of the value of disclosing his consternation.

Thoughtful? SIEQ sorry but you are a loon. Hey Wuap stay in the church but don't listen to a word anyone says because they don't know shit and they are to small minded to think for themselves.

SIEQ is that guy who always thinks he is the smartest person in the room and above reproach.

[wuapinmon]

Wuap, please don't let yourself become this cynical.

It's difficult for an optimist to be pessimistic and/or cynical. But, I'm losing some of my usual optimism. The 1990's were a damned good time to be alive. I'm starting to remember how I felt during the Cold War; I was cynical in my early youth, but religion changed me, gave me an external reason to want to be a better man.

I can trace where I am right now back to a single moment....when I was in the branch presidency in New Orleans, right before Hurricane Katrina hit. I was also YM Pres, Scoutmaster, and I taught Seminary in my home to 7 kids each morning....in a PEC meeting, expressing my frustration with the SP's requirement that I break my scout troop of 8 boys into a Varsity Team and Venturer Crew, for the older kids, and the stake president was there, and he called me out and said, "Brother Williams, are you doing all that you can to serve the Lord?" He was trying to silence me because I was disagreeing with his stupid bullshit plan, and he had no idea the hours upon hours of work that I was putting in to keep our little branch running and make sure that the 7 athletically-focused black youth in my branch didn't feel that the fat white YMP was out of touch with what interested them. The question was so obtuse that it left me feeling like I was nothing to him but someone to do something so he could put it in a report. I was stung. Since that day, my testimony has shrunk, one conversation, inane comment, racist joke, or belligerent testimony at a time.

I also no longer need an external reason to want to be a better man. Now, I want to be a better man because it's the right way to be, and because Jesus teaches us to do so. I no longer worry about my eternal soul, my salvation, or any of that. I'm a decent man who tries to bring peace into the world, but doesn't mind defending others. I am a good father. I pay my bills, my taxes, and my dues. I don't break the law (I rarely even speed). I'm prideful as hell, but it's hard to be humble (like another Mac once said). I think I'm doing pretty well following the Beattitudes and 3Ne12. The rest of it doesn't interest me. Maybe I'll go to the terrestrial kingdom. That's a gamble I'm willing to take if it means that I can be happy with who and what I am in this life, rather than trying to be something I'm not and judging people all the time for making choices that only really affect them (and not me).

Anyway, I'm becoming cynical. I don't really want to be, but you can only kick against all these pricks for so long before weariness overtakes you.

[Green Monstah]

Wuap, please don't let yourself become this cynical.

I guess I should re-read the Mauss quotes, but I don't see a material difference in the message Mauss conveys with the message SIEQ conveys.

[Northwestcoug]

I guess I should re-read the Mauss quotes, but I don't read a material difference in the message Mauss conveys with the message SIEQ conveys.

There may be a difference in tone, but Mauss is saying similar things, at least the way I read it. He is disenchanted with general church policies and he openly proclaims it. He is quite cynical of being called into church leadership because of his writings. And, he uses that disenchantment as a source of strength to stay in the church.

I agree with you. Mauss is nearer the SEIQ side of the spectrum.

[Topper]

Wuap, please don't let yourself become this cynical.

This didn't sound cynical to me. Where do you spot the cynicism?

[Topper]

Anyway, I'm becoming cynical. I don't really want to be, but you can only kick against all these pricks for so long before weariness overtakes you.

I can't get into your head, but being practical and wary, is not the same as cynical. Life's journey will inform our reason to be wary, before we become too weary. Being aware of the probable outcomes is not the same as cynicism.

[Topper]

Thoughtful? SIEQ sorry but you are a loon. Hey Wuap stay in the church but don't listen to a word anyone says because they don't know shit and they are to small minded to think for themselves.

SIEQ is that guy who always thinks he is the smartest person in the room and above reproach.

I don't get your cynicism toward SIEQ. My dealings with him lead me to believe he is sincere and thoughtful. Do you believe he thinks himself to be the smartest guy in the room because of his vocabulary? My perception is that he is an academic who spends a lot of time thinking about matters in a careful way, and that he tries to express himself as precisely as possible, using the language of his profession. I am truly interested why you harbor distrust of him, because it runs contrary to my experience.

[Jeff Lebowski]

There may be a difference in tone, but Mauss is saying similar things, at least the way I read it. He is disenchanted with general church policies and he openly proclaims it. He is quite cynical of being called into church leadership because of his writings. And, he uses that disenchantment as a source of strength to stay in the church.

I agree with you. Mauss is nearer the SEIQ side of the spectrum.

Sure, the general message is similar, but there is a big difference in tone. I think Mauss's approach is more practical, common sense, and empathetic than it is cynical. And therefore more sustainable in the long term. ymmv

[Sleeping in EQ]

Sure, the general message is similar, but there is a big difference in tone. I think Mauss's approach is more practical, common sense, and empathetic than it is cynical. And therefore more sustainable in the long term. ymmv

I think you've simply misunderstood. I'm not cynical, and am actually very positive in a long-term way.

[Green Monstah]

Sure, the general message is similar, but there is a big difference in tone. I think Mauss's approach is more practical, common sense, and empathetic than it is cynical. And therefore more sustainable in the long term. ymmv

To be fair, I think Mauss' eloquence masks what you call "cynicsm." If he was empathetic, it was only because he viewed the church as an "impersonal bureaucracy" run by local leadership who were forced to cope with "unpleasant" directives from the bureaucracy. His pragmatism arises from the fact that he divorced God from the Church and its leaders.

[Jeff Lebowski]

To be fair, I think Mauss' eloquence masks what you call "cynicsm." If he was empathetic, it was only because he viewed the church as an "impersonal bureaucracy" run by local leadership who were forced to cope with "unpleasant" directives from the bureaucracy. His pragmatism arises from the fact that he divorced God from the Church and its leaders.

The manner in which you frame that is telling. You are omitting all the things Mauss said about giving people the benefit of the doubt and are emphasizing the notion of a big soul-crushing bureaucracy. From the Mauss quote:

I guess one could say that I have always tried to look on the church and its leaders with faith, hope, and charity, even while keeping my expectations modest.

Notice that he is recognizes that both the church and the leaders are imperfect but deserving of our loyalty and respect.

Here is another point from SIEQ's post:

Have you considered that you should not give your Bishop--or the Church for that matter--so much power in your life? They don't understand you, won't understand you, and are caught up in institutional concerns. You are not obligated to seek understanding from those who, despite good intentions, are incapable of providing it. The best you can expect from "good" local leadership is a kind of patronizing tolerance because that's all the HOI provides for. No deeply spiritual adult will thrive in such a situation.

Local leadership has become so HOI driven because they have almost no training, little inherited understanding, and their own lives to conduct. An abundance of guilt, in the form of demands of compliance from above, is sitting on them and while they deserve your pity, and perhaps your empathy, they don't deserve your conformity, explanations, or unswerving loyalty. They can't even listen to you beyond what the HOI allows, and so you're not obligated to seek anything from them.

Does the HOI take otherwise good people and turn them into heartless robots? Hardly.

Wuap shared that that he has had a good experience with both of his bishops, but this last one is off the rails. He has shared some things that his bishop has done (withholding recommends based on HT performance, expecting all kids to bear testimony each week, etc.) that have particularly bothered him. Can you please show me where those things are in the HOI? You could argue that this guy's problem is he going well beyond the HOI.

But hey, these things happen. It is a big organization run by normal people. The HOI isn't perfect and neither are the leaders. Neither is you or me or wuap or SIEQ. Once you fully accept that and understand that everyone is at different stages in life and has varying levels of leadership skills, etc. the more content you will be.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think you've simply misunderstood. I'm not cynical, and am actually very positive in a long-term way.

That is great.

[Green Monstah]

The manner in which you frame that is telling. You are omitting all the things Mauss said about giving people the benefit of the doubt and are emphasizing the notion of a big soul-crushing bureaucracy.

But hey, these things happen. It is a big organization run by normal people. The HOI isn't perfect and neither are the leaders. Neither is you or me or wuap or SIEQ. Once you fully accept that and understand that everyone is at different stages in life and has varying levels of leadership skills, etc. the more content you will be.

Here, here.

[Moliere]

I no longer worry about my eternal soul, my salvation, or any of that.

This is exactly what has allowed me to continue serving and attending church. It's liberating and honestly makes church more fun. I laugh at stupid stuff, turn down stupid assignments, and serve where I feel the need really exists. I'm not vocal about much of it but will express my opinion at times if needed. I'm also grateful to have a hand in directing the ward and constantly being able to address the youth.

In short, I'm working out my own salvation. The church is not the kingdom of God on earth, but hopefully someday it gets to that point.