It's OK to resign.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Exactly. SU and other ex-mos agree with you completely. You're doing their work for them. Trust me they love this argument that either everything happened EXACTLY like Joseph Smith said and if it didn't then Joseph Smith was a fraud and liar and Mormonism is totally bogus. That's a great anti-Mo and ex-Mo argument.

Hack!

[SeattleUte]

Exactly. SU and other ex-mos agree with you completely. You're doing their work for them. Trust me they love this argument that either everything happened EXACTLY like Joseph Smith said and if it didn't then Joseph Smith was a fraud and liar and Mormonism is totally bogus. That's a great anti-Mo and ex-Mo argument.

Crockett, stick with the courage of your convictions! As you see, progressive Mormons are spineless fence sitters. Listen to Elder Oaks; don't let them erode your moral courage!

[Crockett]

I've gone through several reactions to reading this.

The first was that it was a satirical troll, and not worth a reply.

The second was that grappling with these kinds of questions is usually a solo job, and that we must each do our own heavy lifting.

The last is the off-chance that it was a sincere query, and so - in that spirit - I will give a sincere reply:

Thank you for taking the time to provide a thoughtful reply. I am being sincere. I am of the zealous variety, but probably not the kind you usually think of (like the guy that has lived in Utah his whole life except his mission). I was born and raised in California. I've lived and worked abroad (besides my mission) and in DC, Chicago, LA, and now Oregon. I work for a European company and travel the world. I drink caffeine. One of my favorite movies is rated R. My mission trainer was an atheist. I've read lots of anti-mormon stuff. I went to grad school in California and one of my friends and study mates was gay and he and his partner had an adopted son. So, I don't think I'm sheltered.

I'd like to respond with a more thorough, thoughtful post right now, but my schedule precludes that. I intend to come back to this conversation soon.

Peace, brother.

[Crockett]

I hope the literal claims to be true but, using the brains God has given me to reason it out on my own, I conclude the literal claims are the least likely explanation, out of several possible explanations, for the book's existence. I conclude a more likely explanation is that the book is a modern invention rather than an ancient record. That doesn't preclude it from being inspired by God, which I believe to be so. I have never stated I reject the literal claims, simply that they are the least likely and the least rational. Also, that they aren't terribly relevant to me. What I do reject, which Solon and Lebowski and others have already articulated, is the false choice of "either literal truth or pernicious fraud".

Witnesses? There is some documentation that points to them "seeing" the plates with their "spiritual eyes". I hope they literally saw and physically handled the plates but, again, it's more likely that they didn't and, again, it doesn't really matter to me if they did. If I die and go to the spirit world, and the 3 and 8 witnesses are there, with Joseph and Moroni and the gold plates, I'll certainly rejoice.

I believe in God. I believe in a God that created this world although not in 6 literal 24-hour days. I believe God inspired Joseph. But your resulting question based on those premises, "then why do you not accept these literal claims?", doesn't have any relationship to those premises. Go watch How Rare A Posession. Di Francesca believed the book to be the work of God and he had never heard of Joseph Smith or the origins of the book. Clearly those things aren't necessary to either know or believe in order to gain a conviction that the book is from God.

Thanks, again.

I like where you are at. You don't have it all intellectually figured out, but you haven't closed the door either. You are exercising faith and going with what you do know. I absolutely respect that.

BTW, I don't think anyone inside the Church believes the world was created in 6 literal 24 hour days. I know some Christians do, but I've never heard a member claim this belief.

[Topper]

Thanks, again.

I like where you are at. You don't have it all intellectually figured out, but you haven't closed the door either. You are exercising faith and going with what you do know. I absolutely respect that.

BTW, I don't think anyone inside the Church believes the world was created in 6 literal 24 hour days. I know some Christians do, but I've never heard a member claim this belief.

One of ETB's sons, the one who taught religion classes at BYU, did. I can't remember his name, but I took BoM from him my freshman year.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Just imagine if the BoM didn't indicate that Native Americans were a Semitic people and instead said there were a native people in the Americas already before the Nephites came. There's an enormous gap between what the BoM says and what genetic testing says regarding Native American heritage.

Making reference to horses could be downplayed as a translation problem, a mistake. One can even say that Joseph Smith was guided to copy the Matthew and Isaiah chapters out of the King James Bible. But the Native Americans are Semitic thing is really a bridge too far for anyone that cares to look at it. It's too central to the BoM.

[Bo Diddley]

Just imagine if the BoM didn't indicate that Native Americans were a Semitic people and instead said there were a native people in the Americas already before the Nephites came. There's an enormous gap between what the BoM says and what genetic testing says regarding Native American heritage.

Making reference to horses could be downplayed as a translation problem, a mistake. One can even say that Joseph Smith was guided to copy the Matthew and Isaiah chapters out of the King James Bible. But the Native Americans are Semitic thing is really a bridge too far for anyone that cares to look at it. It's too central to the BoM.

Some disagree with you. Some think the Nephites mixed with people who were already here, and that's why the people grew so fast. To me it really doesn't matter. That's not what the Book of Mormon means to me.

[Topper]

Solon:

I am no apologist for the Book of Mormon. In fact, I very much think it (or, at least big parts of it) to be the product of 19th century religious impulses.
On the other hand, I am in no position to declare that Joseph Smith invented the entire thing. I highly doubt that possibility.
Finally, I ascribe to the belief that God can do whatever God wants to do. If that means imbuing a 19th century book with inspired messages of hope, then that's what God can do.

From your past postings, it seemed you tended toward agnosticism. Are you merely making the academic argument or is there something that makes you now believe there is some non-human influence in the BoM? Not intending to offend.

[Goatnapper'96]

One of ETB's sons, the one who taught religion classes at BYU, did. I can't remember his name, but I took BoM from him my freshman year.

Your freshman year many religious folks still thought in-vitro was humans playing God. I doubt this guy still believes that.

[Topper]

Your freshman year many religious folks still thought in-vitro was humans playing God. I doubt this guy still believes that.

I believe he may be deceased now. My freshman year, my BYU microbiology teacher had to apologize to the class because some class members thought he was being apostate for teaching the theory of evolution as supported by science. He some brochures for people, which weren't being tested on, so I didn't read them, to explain how he could do that.

Of course, I grew up agnostic, so I didn't know people believe otherwise, until Stella in my high school biology class was allowed to read Genesis by my biology teacher to us. As an inconsiderate freshman, I laughed and told my neighbor, "who believes that stuff"? Len, who was one of the cool kids, replied, "I do." After that I kept my mouth shut for a while that is.

[Sizzle]

One of ETB's sons, the one who taught religion classes at BYU, did. I can't remember his name, but I took BoM from him my freshman year.

Reed Benson. I also took BoM from him my freshman year.

[Topper]

Reed Benson. I also took BoM from him my freshman year.

Yep. He seemed like a nice guy, but had a bunch of weird ideas. We received some lectures on the need to go back onto the gold standard. Leaving the gold standard was ruining our economy, or so he said.

[snowcat]

I would have never imagined that this thread would be worth reading. Thanks to the thoughtful contributors.

[Omaha 680]

I would have never imagined that this thread would be worth reading. Thanks to the thoughtful contributors.

[SeattleUte]

Solon:



From your past postings, it seemed you tended toward agnosticism. Are you merely making the academic argument or is there something that makes you now believe there is some non-human influence in the BoM? Not intending to offend.

He's being nice. A sycophant. I was appalled at the comment.