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Suffering for the sins of the world

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  • #1

    Suffering for the sins of the world

    In my previous thread, I mentioned some questions one of the missionaries in my ward asked. Well, here's another: Who caused Christ's suffering in the garden of Gethsemene (sp)? Was it God? Satan? Christ himself?

    I had a tough time answering this one because it didn't seem like a question with a straight forward answer...mostly because I've never thought of it.

    I know there had to be a physical representation of all the sins of the world, but what is the significance of bleeding from every pore to illustrate that point? Is there any at all?

    The other brother that was in there took the "Christ allowed this to happen" position, and spoke of Paul who he summarized as essentially saying "it is absurd to believe that Christ came down here and was simply killed by Romans." Suggesting that the human part of Christ had to suffer and the God part of Christ had to allow that suffering...otherwise he could've ended it whenever he wanted to, just as he did when he was on the cross.

    Thoughts?
    "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
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  • #2
    Originally posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    In my previous thread, I mentioned some questions one of the missionaries in my ward asked. Well, here's another: Who caused Christ's suffering in the garden of Gethsemene (sp)? Was it God? Satan? Christ himself?
    us.

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    • #3
      In my previous thread, I mentioned some questions one of the missionaries in my ward asked. Well, here's another: Who caused Christ's suffering in the garden of Gethsemene (sp)? Was it God? Satan? Christ himself?
      Like Babs said, I think it was us, but more directly, some great universal law that requires suffering for sin.

      Which then brings me to the question: can God put aside that law? And if He can, but chooses not to, does that mean He is responsible for Jesus' suffering?

      Maybe.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Babs View Post
        us.
        Well, I know he suffered for our sins, but I guess the question was who or what force caused the actual physical manifestation of that suffering?

        If we were made to suffer for our own sins, we would have to bear that burden individually, and I would assume that would only come after a judgement from God.
        "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

        Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

        Comment

        • #5
          Originally posted by JohnnyLingo View Post
          Like Babs said, I think it was us, but more directly, some great universal law that requires suffering for sin.

          Which then brings me to the question: can God put aside that law? And if He can, but chooses not to, does that mean He is responsible for Jesus' suffering?

          Maybe.
          This is where we find out what his will was.

          His will was that one person take this upon himself so that we wouldn't have to...in which case, yes, he is responsible...but in that parental this hurts me more than it hurts you kind of way.
          "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

          Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

          Comment

          • #6
            I think it's pretty clear that it's the Father that allowed it. Isn't that why Jesus cried, Eloi Eloi, lama sabachthani ?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Babs View Post
              I think it's pretty clear that it's the Father that allowed it. Isn't that why Jesus cried, Eloi Eloi, lama sabachthani ?
              An alternate intepretation is that Jesus was left without the presence of the Father sustaining Him, as it had been during his entire mortal existence. He had to bear the suffering alone, and was truly alone for the first time.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by JohnnyLingo View Post
                An alternate intepretation is that Jesus was left without the presence of the Father sustaining Him, as it had been during his entire mortal existence. He had to bear the suffering alone, and was truly alone for the first time.
                Some say that the total isolation from the Father *is* the suffering.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Babs View Post
                  Some say that the total isolation from the Father *is* the suffering.
                  Interesting. I hadn't considered that.

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                  • #10
                    I think the answers (in part) are in Alma 34 and 42. He suffered in order to satisfy the demands of justice, and it was because of mankind's sins and other acts of injustice that he did so. So I think Babs is right. And he had to do it alone, for some reason that we probably won't understand fully for a long time, if ever.
                    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                    ― W.H. Auden

                    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons

                    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                      He suffered in order to satisfy the demands of justice, and it was because of mankind's sins and other acts of injustice that he did so.
                      Okay, but more directly, what was it? That answers the question of "why" but not exactly "how?"

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JohnnyLingo View Post
                        Interesting. I hadn't considered that.
                        Every good and perfect gift is from above. Perfect communion with the Father is the ideal existence. Conversely, total isolation from the Father is, quite literally, hell -- the loss of all that it is good in the world. Some believe that hell is not so much a literal place as it is a state of existence. It's possible that that is what Christ experienced on the cross.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Babs View Post
                          Every good and perfect gift is from above. Perfect communion with the Father is the ideal existence. Conversely, total isolation from the Father is, quite literally, hell -- the loss of all that it is good in the world. Some believe that hell is not so much a literal place as it is a state of existence. It's possible that that is what Christ experienced on the cross.
                          As a clarifying point, how do you differentiate that from what we as mortals experience our entire lives? Are we all living in Hell?
                          Fitter. Happier. More Productive.
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TripletDaddy View Post
                            As a clarifying point, how do you differentiate that from what we as mortals experience our entire lives? Are we all living in Hell?
                            No, we experience an imperfect communion with the Father in this life. He bestows blessings and mercy on us daily.

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                            • #15
                              Are you looking for an answer such as the Matrix, where actual experiences were plugged into Neo's mind, causing him to live through them? Somehow in that moment Jesus received a perfect understanding of every type of suffering from labor pains to watching your child be gang-raped and murdered to falling out of a jet at 400 mph in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

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