D&C 59:21

[ERCougar]

So you're constrained by your bishop and SP?

No...he's constrained by the scriptures. The wording's very clear. "All things". It easily could have been left out.

[ERCougar]

Who is to say what is "good" and what is "bad"?

Don't get me wrong, I think like any loving parent God doesn't like to see his children suffer. But I think He understands much better than we do what the purpose of this life is. And it wouldn't surprise me if at some point we discover that some of the things we thought were "bad" aren't actually seen that way by him.

I absolutely hate taking my kids in for immunizations, especially when they were really little and would look up at me with tears in their eyes and a look of "how could you let them do this to me?!?" as the nurses stuck them full of needles and I held them down.

I suppose they felt the same way that we do when we sometimes think God must hate us to let certain things occur. When in reality I knew that the pain in the shot was worth it for what pain they would potentially avoid later.

Obviously this doesn't account for free will and people harming other people. But while I think things like hurricanes and tsunamis and earthquakes are horrible things, maybe God views them as something different.

I'm not sure if any of that makes sense - and I'm not even sure to what degree I believe it. But it is something that makes me think.

To me, this is the only possible explanation that keeps an active and intervening God intact. To me, it feels a little odd to see God directing tsunamis, but I also know that my perspective has changed dramatically over just my 35 years of life, and I imagine an eternal perspective would be an even more dramatic change. I don't know.

[Indy Coug]

No...he's constrained by the scriptures. The wording's very clear. "All things". It easily could have been left out.

Instead of looking at verse 21 in a vacuum, why read it in the context of the preceding 20 verses? What is being discussed?

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/59

[creekster]

First, I think Indy makes a very good point that it is important to read the verse in context. Even adding verse 20 to the reading helps a great deal.

Second, confessing God's hand in all things, even out of context, may mean something much different that is being considered in the thread, IMO. One of the key goals in life is to submit to God's will and accept His direction in all we do. All that is, is of God. Thus, His hand is in all things. Whether He tends to the deist or the interventionist model, His hand is found in all things.

Third, the notion of offending God is not to be taken literally, in my mind. When we say something offends our sensibilities we don't mean that our sensibilities are angry, we mean something is inconsistent with our feelings, or that we oppose it. I think this is how that phrase should be read in this verse. God is not angry, but we act inconsistently with God and His purpose when we fail to submit to His will in all things, including acknowledging His presence as creator and, if you will, prime mover, of all that is.

[ERCougar]

First, I think Indy makes a very good point that it is important to read the verse in context. Even adding verse 20 to the reading helps a great deal.

Second, confessing God's hand in all things, even out of context, may mean something much different that is being considered in the thread, IMO. One of the key goals in life is to submit to God's will and accept His direction in all we do. All that is, is of God. Thus, His hand is in all things. Whether He tends to the deist or the interventionist model, His hand is found in all things.

Third, the notion of offending God is not to be taken literally, in my mind. When we say something offends our sensibilities we don't mean that our sensibilities are angry, we mean something is inconsistent with our feelings, or that we oppose it. I think this is how that phrase should be read in this verse. God is not angry, but we act inconsistently with God and His purpose when we fail to submit to His will in all things, including acknowledging His presence as creator and, if you will, prime mover, of all that is.

Verse 20 (or the rest of the section) doesn't really help me much. I do like your second point though, as he means this more of a personal counsel than a general theological point. Look for the hand of God in the events in your life and you'll be blessed. I can go with that.

In your third point, I must be misunderstanding you. Reread the scripture....it's VERY strongly worded. The way I read it, it says that there's not a thing out there that offends God--even "kindles his wrath" (if that's not anger, I'm not sure what is)--than those who don't confess His hand in all things. Nothing. Murderers, rapists, they're all cool as long as they strive to confess God's hand in the world. That seems extreme, no? Is God just using hyperbole to make a point here?

EDIT: I have a hard time not filing this in the same category as the "adultery is the sin next to murder" one. Hyperbole to make a point. There are a lot of sins that I think God views worse than adultery. Child sexual abuse, for one.

[Indy Coug]

Verse 20 (or the rest of the section) doesn't really help me much. I do like your second point though, as he means this more of a personal counsel than a general theological point. Look for the hand of God in the events in your life and you'll be blessed. I can go with that.

In your third point, I must be misunderstanding you. Reread the scripture....it's VERY strongly worded. The way I read it, it says that there's not a thing out there that offends God--even "kindles his wrath" (if that's not anger, I'm not sure what is)--than those who don't confess His hand in all things. Nothing. Murderers, rapists, they're all cool as long as they strive to confess God's hand in the world. That seems extreme, no? Is God just using hyperbole to make a point here?

EDIT: I have a hard time not filing this in the same category as the "adultery is the sin next to murder" one. Hyperbole to make a point. There are a lot of sins that I think God views worse than adultery. Child sexual abuse, for one.

IMHO, your problem is you are so bent on the literalism of the scripture you fail to apply it in the context and spirit in which it is given, and to whom it is given.

[wuapinmon]

bump