Big Brother is Watching

[SoonerCoug]

Do you believe in a Great Spirit?

I believe in the God particle.

[imanihonjin]

You're making a huge assumption that religion gave you those things.

I think that you believe that religion gave you those things because that's what the religion has told you to believe. But all of those things occur even in the absence of religion.

Just because those things happen in the absence of religion, does not mean that religion cannot be the a source of those things as well.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I believe in the God particle.

That's a start!

Now feed that particle by keeping the commandments and walking in faith and it will begin to bear fruit.

[Pheidippides]

meh, not really either one of those things. i look at someone like flystripper and he doesn't appear to wash much, if any, of his personal time down the drain like you do obsessing about this bs. there is no rational explanation for the time you spend of your own volition doing what you do. When I say "not at all," i am talking about that which is under your own control. Of course you cant avoid all overbearing relatives or ward members that want to rope you back in nor would I begrudge anyone a lifetime of memories (both good and bad). If people don't respect your personal decisions, that is definitely on them, no you, but let's not pretend that there is not a conscious choice being made here to continue to wallow in the muck, willingly and enthusiastically so. I would argue that the "the church wont leave me alone" trope that you are promulgating is equally played out.

Sorry, bucko. Like usual, you are speaking above your experience, only this time you aren't funny about it. One day I aspire to be Flystripper, but sensible people know that doesn't happen in 9 months. Especially when you are too cheap to pay for counseling (and in any event I'd hope it would be better than the gratis bit of nonsense you just tossed up). Two years is what I hope for; some have claimed (ridiculously so, I may add) that it takes two years for every year you were in. I'm just glad SHW and I are over the angry stage at this point so we can focus on being angry at her family instead.

If you'd like I can go back to calling all of your leaders nasty pejoratives. That was fun.

[Uncle Ted]

Do you believe in a Great Spirit?

I don't think Sooner is even native american.

[cougjunkie]

Sorry, bucko. Like usual, you are speaking above your experience, only this time you aren't funny about it. One day I aspire to be Flystripper, but sensible people know that doesn't happen in 9 months. Especially when you are too cheap to pay for counseling (and in any event I'd hope it would be better than the gratis bit of nonsense you just tossed up). Two years is what I hope for; some have claimed (ridiculously so, I may add) that it takes two years for every year you were in. I'm just glad SHW and I are over the angry stage at this point so we can focus on being angry at her family instead.

If you'd like I can go back to calling all of your leaders nasty pejoratives. That was fun.

DDD just got absolutely destroyed.

I will say that the other thing that is played out is Nik posting ridiculous anecdotes followed by comments like "not that I believe them". Which tells us he does indeed believe them.

[YOhio]

...Especially when you are too cheap to pay for counseling.....

I was worried that you were completely lost to us, but now I see that a flicker of Mormonism still burns within you. I won't give up on you, buddy.

[Surfah]

#wmph

[Northwestcoug]

Here's my quote:



I made an either/or statement. If they believe all their words, then they're burying their head in the sand or relying on faith alone (the implication for the "faith alone" crowd is that they've done their homework and choose to believe anyway. I'm okay with that.).

I did not assert that any number or percentage were in the willful ignorance camp, although I can think of at least one I'd put in that category.

Also, answer the question on Andersen. Do you think he's well-read on JS?

I don't remember all that was said in the bat-shit crazy thread, but I do agree that that's one of the more, um, unorthodox things I've heard in GC, GM. However, it wouldn't surprise me if Andersen was well-versed in JS's history. If you accept that he saw deity and was commanded to start a new church, everything else can be explained away. The more unsavory aspects of JS's life become testaments to the mercy of God in calling imperfect men to be prophets. Indeed, I've heard this exclaimed by people who wouldn't even think of marrying someone else's wife as an example of the mercy of God in their own lives.

Hell, look at this board. There seem to be at least a few people who know the ins and outs of JS's life yet still believe in his mission to one degree or another. I don't think being well-versed with JS makes the first statement in your either/or argument necessarily true. The facts of JS's life that make active participation in the church impossible for some can actually strengthen faith for others.

[MarkGrace]

Sorry, bucko. Like usual, you are speaking above your experience, only this time you aren't funny about it. One day I aspire to be Flystripper, but sensible people know that doesn't happen in 9 months. Especially when you are too cheap to pay for counseling (and in any event I'd hope it would be better than the gratis bit of nonsense you just tossed up). Two years is what I hope for; some have claimed (ridiculously so, I may add) that it takes two years for every year you were in. I'm just glad SHW and I are over the angry stage at this point so we can focus on being angry at her family instead.

If you'd like I can go back to calling all of your leaders nasty pejoratives. That was fun.

The length of a mission! How fitting. Hopefully this 2nd mission doesn't result in PTSD or another reason for therapy.

[TripletDaddy]

Sorry, bucko. Like usual, you are speaking above your experience, only this time you aren't funny about it. One day I aspire to be Flystripper, but sensible people know that doesn't happen in 9 months. Especially when you are too cheap to pay for counseling (and in any event I'd hope it would be better than the gratis bit of nonsense you just tossed up). Two years is what I hope for; some have claimed (ridiculously so, I may add) that it takes two years for every year you were in. I'm just glad SHW and I are over the angry stage at this point so we can focus on being angry at her family instead.

If you'd like I can go back to calling all of your leaders nasty pejoratives. That was fun.

You can call them whatever. I'm not easily offended nor would I care much anyway, but i think by doing so it would speak more about you than about them. I am glad to hear that you are past the angry stage.

[Green Monstah]

I don't remember all that was said in the bat-shit crazy thread, but I do agree that that's one of the more, um, unorthodox things I've heard in GC, GM. However, it wouldn't surprise me if Andersen was well-versed in JS's history. If you accept that he saw deity and was commanded to start a new church, everything else can be explained away. The more unsavory aspects of JS's life become testaments to the mercy of God in calling imperfect men to be prophets. Indeed, I've heard this exclaimed by people who wouldn't even think of marrying someone else's wife as an example of the mercy of God in their own lives.

Hell, look at this board. There seem to be at least a few people who know the ins and outs of JS's life yet still believe in his mission to one degree or another. I don't think being well-versed with JS makes the first statement in your either/or argument necessarily true. The facts of JS's life that make active participation in the church impossible for some can actually strengthen faith for others.

I'm not saying that knowing the ins and outs of JS requires lack of belief, but at the very least, I'd hope it would offer some perspective and empathy for those who have lost faith in JS. I see no evidence of such perspective or empathy in Andersen's talk.

I've heard some interviews and podcasts given by Richard Bushman, and I think he is the epitome of the educated believer. Even when confronted with difficult questions, he does not get defensive and firmly believes that more information is the answer . He takes a balanced approach, admitting mistakes (even gross errors) by JS. Contrast that with Andersen's attempt to bolster JS as a man above reproach. The implication of his speech is that information that indicates JS character was less than "unimpeachable" are either half-true, outright lies, or taken out of context. Make no mistake, there is a lot of bogus, unsubstantiated bullshit out there, but it's no more bullshit than a lot of the information on JS that comes from Salt Lake.

If taken at face value, his talk effectively discourages open discourse and attempts to shame those with serious reservations about JS's character.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'm not saying that knowing the ins and outs of JS requires lack of belief, but at the very least, I'd hope it would offer some perspective and empathy for those who have lost faith in JS. I see no evidence of such perspective or empathy in Andersen's talk.

I've heard some interviews and podcasts given by Richard Bushman, and I think he is the epitome of the educated believer. Even when confronted with difficult questions, he does not get defensive and firmly believes that more information is the answer . He takes a balanced approach, admitting mistakes (even gross errors) by JS. Contrast that with Andersen's attempt to bolster JS as a man above reproach. The implication of his speech is that information that indicates JS character was less than "unimpeachable" are either half-true, outright lies, or taken out of context. Make no mistake, there is a lot of bogus, unsubstantiated bullshit out there, but it's no more bullshit than a lot of the information on JS that comes from Salt Lake.

If taken at face value, his talk effectively discourages open discourse and attempts to shame those with serious reservations about JS's character.

#43

[Sizzle]

Sorry, bucko...

DDD just got absolutely destroyed.

No kidding. I can confirm DDD looks nothing like Ned Flanders, and that he's married. Can't do the same for Bucko. Low blow indeed.

[Northwestcoug]

I'm not saying that knowing the ins and outs of JS requires lack of belief, but at the very least, I'd hope it would offer some perspective and empathy for those who have lost faith in JS. I see no evidence of such perspective or empathy in Andersen's talk.

I've heard some interviews and podcasts given by Richard Bushman, and I think he is the epitome of the educated believer. Even when confronted with difficult questions, he does not get defensive and firmly believes that more information is the answer . He takes a balanced approach, admitting mistakes (even gross errors) by JS. Contrast that with Andersen's attempt to bolster JS as a man above reproach. The implication of his speech is that information that indicates JS character was less than "unimpeachable" are either half-true, outright lies, or taken out of context. Make no mistake, there is a lot of bogus, unsubstantiated bullshit out there, but it's no more bullshit than a lot of the information on JS that comes from Salt Lake.

If taken at face value, his talk effectively discourages open discourse and attempts to shame those with serious reservations about JS's character.

I agree with this, and think ultimately it does more harm than good. But I still think he could be as knowledgeable as any yet still not see any dishonesty or deception in his own discourse. Any believer's fall-back option is 'God commanded it so'. How can you argue with what looks like deception, criminal activity, or immoral behavior, if you believe God commanded JS to do all the things he did?