Zoo Testimony

[Solon]

Yeah, no kidding. BURN!

Or am I know the classicist's version of KL's golf tournament moron?

You've got way too much street cred for that.

[wuapinmon]

Aaah, Sublime. You're treating me well today, Wuap, in the music category.

"Reefers."

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that all four of them habitually smoke marijuana cigarettes!

[Goatnapper'96]

Nobody can prove that miracles don't occur.

I just think most faith-promoting stories like this are better explained as a retrospective analysis of events in the form of a familiar archetypal narrative pattern.

Now if this resident had some sort of prospective documentation of the promptings he was receiving to visit the gorillas for some important medical purpose, I would view that as evidence that a miracle may have occurred in this case.

I once agreed with the good doctor. Then I decided I agreed with you. Then I came to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter, and even moreso if in fact this fellow really believes that God told him to go check out creekster's monkeys so that he would be in a position to help people and that makes him want to be more like Jesus, then it is a net benefit for all of mankind.

As to whether or not this indicates to us anything more about God's attributes, designs, inconsistencies or whatnot other than a young fellow believes he had an experience that makes him want to be more like Jesus I don't particularly know or care. My take is the young man's believed personal experience with God brought him closer to his God. That approach appeals to me. I have concluded that that is the miracle of faith. It might not be that it leads to God directing our every action as much as we can take any experience we have and after the fact give it our personal spin. It isn't logical and it isn't designed to appeal to others (I rarely bear my witness of my personal experiences and I am one of those that finds far more entertainment in LDS fast and testimony meetings than inspiration - although I do find inspiration as well), but that is the perfect miracle, IMO, of faith. Faith is the vehicle that allows deluded people to make lemonaide out of lemons. It is simplistically beautiful.

As far as whether or not God loves man I look no further than fake secondary mammory glands.

[CardiacCoug]

[VADER]I find your lack of faith disturbing.[/VADER]

Nice.

I'm just relieved that the fourth Article of Faith doesn't read:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are first, faith in illogical stories about going to visit the gorillas at the zoo.....

[Goatnapper'96]

Nice.

I'm just relieved that the fourth Article of Faith doesn't read:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are first, faith in illogical stories about going to visit the gorillas at the zoo.....

I think that it can be concluded that most of the gospel beliefs are illogical. There is little logic to a half mortal / half God paying the price for others' salvation.

Saying that I have always believed that the doubting Thomas story wasn't so much a chide to folks whose approach is similar to yours as much as an indicator that the tent is big enough to include folks who struggle buying the illogical side of religion.

[wuapinmon]

Saying that I have always believed that the doubting Thomas story wasn't so much a chide to folks whose approach is similar to yours as much as an indicator that the tent is big enough to include folks who struggle buying the illogical side of religion.

Exactly,

Thomas wasn't 'released' as an Apostle because he had to see proof.

[Babs]

Or am I know the classicist's version of KL's golf tournament moron?

Who's typing this?

[CardiacCoug]

I think that it can be concluded that most of the gospel beliefs are illogical. There is little logic to a half mortal / half God paying the price for others' salvation.

Saying that I have always believed that the doubting Thomas story wasn't so much a chide to folks whose approach is similar to yours as much as an indicator that the tent is big enough to include folks who struggle buying the illogical side of religion.

Well said. I agree.

[LA Ute]

Faith-promoting stories like these are basically archetypal LDS narratives. We hear similar stories with similar patterns told very frequently in meetings from the time we are little kids.

Then when a stressful or momentous event occurs, it's easy to analyze most stories retrospectively and fit the story into the archetypal pattern.

This story seems like a great example of this phenomenon. There have been other stories on this board and especially on CB that fit this archetypal narrative pattern as well.

Hey, Cardiac, my friend, when I was returning from my mission in Guatemala I escorted a temple excursion to Mesa, AZ (in 1975 the closest temple to Guatemala). The big Greyhound-style bus we rode on had a horrific collision with a petroleum tanker truck. Many were seriously injured, one infant was killed. We had stopped for a restroom break about 10 minutes before that accident, and when I got back on the bus I had a feeling that I should sit in the aisle seat, just behind the driver, instead of the window seat, where I had sat for the prior three days and nights. No voice spoke to me, it was just a spur of the moment idea that entered my mind. Had I remained in my customary seat I would have been killed. (I was pretty badly injured as it was.)

Now, I have remembered that experience ever since and have felt grateful that I got to live beyond the age of 21 and live the life I have had. I have never doubted that I was in God's hands and that He saved me at that time, probably so I could be here now and torment you. I was in His service and had been promised in my patriarchal blessing that I would be protected during my missionary service. If I were now to start seeing that experience as an "archetypal LDS narrative" arising from "a stressful or momentous event," I'd look and feel like a total jackass.

Just sayin' . . . .

[SeattleUte]

Somebody higher up in the thread mentioned Augustine. His advice for Christians espousing absurdities seems as valid today as it was in the early fourth century:

It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are.

He was way ahead of his time, thought Genesis was an allegory.

[CardiacCoug]

Hey, Cardiac, my friend, when I was returning from my mission in Guatemala I escorted a temple excursion to Mesa, AZ (in 1975 the closest temple to Guatemala). The big Greyhound-style bus we rode on had a horrific collision with a petroleum tanker truck. Many were seriously injured, one infant was killed. We had stopped for a restroom break about 10 minutes before that accident, and when I got back on the bus I had a feeling that I should sit in the aisle seat, just behind the driver, instead of the window seat, where I had sat for the prior three days and nights. No voice spoke to me, it was just a spur of the moment idea that entered my mind. Had I remained in my customary seat I would have been killed. (I was pretty badly injured as it was.)

Now, I have remembered that experience ever since and have felt grateful that I got to live beyond the age of 21 and live the life I have had. I have never doubted that I was in God's hands and that He saved me at that time, probably so I could be here now and torment you. I was in His service and had been promised in my patriarchal blessing that I would be protected during my missionary service. If I were now to start seeing that experience as an "archetypal LDS narrative" arising from "a stressful or momentous event," I'd look and feel like a total jackass.

Just sayin' . . . .

Wow, that is an amazing story.

What about the mother of the infant who was killed? If she asked you why God protected you and did not protect her infant, what would your response have been?

[Indy Coug]

Wow, that is an amazing story.

What about the mother of the infant who was killed? If she asked you why God protected you and did not protect her infant, what would your response have been?

Why would it be LA Ute's responsibility to answer for God?

[SeattleUte]

Wow, that is an amazing story.

What about the mother of the infant who was killed? If she asked you why God protected you and did not protect her infant, what would your response have been?

"God's power is constrained by outside entities and laws. Perhaps evil is fundamental, and not even God can rid the universe of it because it's a necessary part of the universe and in our own advancement." Maybe God wanted to save everyone but could only get to LA.

It is an amazing story and there are a lot of things I could say about LA's gloss but I won't because I don't want to come off soudning like a total jerk. I'm sure it was a powerful and life changing experience regardless of ex post facto gloss or interpretation.

[CardiacCoug]

Why would it be LA Ute's responsibility to answer for God?

"I don't know" is the response you're suggesting and I think that response is appropriate.

If there is an explanation for why he intervened in one circumstance (based on righteousness, for example) shouldn't there also be an explanation for why he failed to intervene in another case?

[woot]

When Metallica's bus crashed and Cliff Burton was killed, he was sleeping in Kirk Hammett's bunk. I interpret this to mean that god considered Hammett's ability to provide metal to the masses to be of greater good for the earth.

I have some of these from my own life that I used to think were evidence of divine intervention, until I thought about it and realized that they were just coincidences. That was one of the things I hated most about open-mic day in church was the confusion of coincidence with either testing (in the case of bad coincidences) or blessings (in the case of good ones). We know that coincidences exist, and with no possible way of distinguishing between coincidences and divine interventions, there's no rational motivation to attempt to do so.