Scriptural Historicity

[Jeff Lebowski]

OK. I simply saw Givens' post as typical bloggernacle fare that was interesting. As Bokovoy himself said, Givens was trying to find a middle ground, which I found appealing. I posted Givens' thoughts here because I thought it would be interesting to others too. This whole area is one about which I know little and in which I have less than even a hobbyist's interest. So maybe I failed to appreciate the scholarly nature of the debate Givens was entering. (I saw his disclaimer as a sign that he was not trying to so that.)

Don't be so defensive. Nothing at all wrong with posting the link here.

[LA Ute]

Don't be so defensive. Nothing at all wrong with posting the link here.

Well, tell pellegrino to stop beating up on me then! What a meanie.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Well, tell pellegrino to stop beating up on me then! What a meanie.

He is criticizing the content of the essay. Big difference.

[SeattleUte]

By the way, I don't know if you happened to read the Bokovoy quote that I posted a few posts up this morning. It addresses the same topic (the Exodus), but in a different fashion. And again here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davidbo...-history-pt-1/

I agree with him. Does he do book reviews on his blog?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I agree with him. Does he do book reviews on his blog?

You never know. You could ping him. Tell him that you and I are friends.

[Jeff Lebowski]

By the way, I don't know if you happened to read the Bokovoy quote that I posted a few posts up this morning. It addresses the same topic (the Exodus), but in a different fashion. And again here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davidbo...-history-pt-1/

Part 2 of this essay just posted.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davidbo...-history-pt-2/

The stuff on folklore motifs in the bible is fascinating. An excerpt:

Forty is the traditional ritual number of the Middle East signifying “a lot of.” That is why the children of Israel were obliged to wander in the wilderness for forty years (Numbers 14:33, 32:13; Deuteronomy 8:2). This why the children of Israel ate manna for forty years (Exodus 16:35). That is why Jesus “was there in the wilderness forty days tempted of Satan” (Mark 1:13) and why Jesus “fasted forty days and forty nights” (Matt. 4:2). This also explains the extraordinary coincidence that King David and son Solomon, his successor, both just happened to rule for a period of forty years (2 Samuel 5:4; 1 Kings 2:11; 1 Chronicles 29:27; 1 Kings 11:42; 2 Chronicles 9:30). The number forty remains traditional two thousand years later, as in the Arabic tale of “Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves” and in contemporary Jewish folklore, which includes a wish that an individual might live ’til one hundred and twenty,” the product of the ritual number three and the number forty.

[Pelado]

Part 2 of this essay just posted.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davidbo...-history-pt-2/

The stuff on folklore motifs in the bible is fascinating. An excerpt:

I remember covering the "40 as a big number" issue back in my 8th-grade world history class. Surprising that you find that fascinating.

[fusnik]

I was thinking the other day, I can't think of one major story from the OT that rings true:

Creation
Adam/Eve
Flood story
Exodus
Jonah
Lot
Daniel lion den
Sodom and Gomorrah
Thousands of people God kills
Burning bush

[Jeff Lebowski]

I remember covering the "40 as a big number" issue back in my 8th-grade world history class. Surprising that you find that fascinating.

Haha. I can't stop laughing at this post.

Yeah, I was aware of the "forty" thing also. But that is just one example from a broader folklore narrative described in the essay. In other words, it is not just that "forty" means "a lot", but this is one of many different characteristics of these stories that follow a classic folklore motif.

Sorry to bore you!

[Jeff Lebowski]

I was thinking the other day, I can't think of one major story from the OT that rings true:

Creation
Adam/Eve
Flood story
Exodus
Jonah
Lot
Daniel lion den
Sodom and Gomorrah
Thousands of people God kills
Burning bush

How about:

"Ancient tribe conquers a region and then starts an oral tradition (which is written down centuries later) illustrating how God was on their side every step of the way."?

That doesn't ring true?

[Moliere]

I don't know why, but one of the most annoying people at church at the ones that firmly believe in the historicity of the scriptures. It doesn't bug me so much that they believe in an actual, literal flood that covered the entire earth or that they believe that Jonah actually lived in the belly of a fish for 3 days or that the world was created in 6 (of 6,000) literal earth days. I once had a PoGP teacher at BYU that spent one whole lecture on how the creation account in Moses was obviously Moses seeing the creation from a literal earthly perspective and he went through great pains (and many scientific theories) to show how it all fit in to science. It was a painful lecture and even at that time, when I was very orthodox and a very literal believer, I thought his ideas were looney.

No, the thing that bugs me the most is the literal historical believers miss the beauty that exists in the scriptural accounts because they are so fixated on deciphering the historical code and trying to find out what this word means or how a person can sweat blood or how Christ can use elements from the earth to turn water into wine. They tend to miss the gorgeous story arc that is painted by the Biblical authors. Each of the authors, both in the OT and NT, are trying to convey something greater than a historical record. In the NT, the authors are simply trying to convey the wonder and spiritual edification that came from the people that walked and talked with Christ. The way the author of The Acts leads the story up to Peter's dream is amazing. It's beautifully done in a way to show that Peter is the leader of the church and has the power/authority to make the changes that need to be made in regards to the dream. It's obvious the whole story wouldn't have happened exactly as told in Acts, but the story is told in a way that brings about great faith and meaning beyond a discussion about how Christ can control the weather or how kangaroos ended up in Australia after the flood.

People that strain at the historical gnat are missing the real meaning of the scriptures, and sadly our church curriculum (and many in leadership positions) fall well within this category.

[TripletDaddy]

I don't know why, but one of the most annoying people at church at the ones that firmly believe in the historicity of the scriptures. It doesn't bug me so much that they believe in an actual, literal flood that covered the entire earth or that they believe that Jonah actually lived in the belly of a fish for 3 days or that the world was created in 6 (of 6,000) literal earth days. I once had a PoGP teacher at BYU that spent one whole lecture on how the creation account in Moses was obviously Moses seeing the creation from a literal earthly perspective and he went through great pains (and many scientific theories) to show how it all fit in to science. It was a painful lecture and even at that time, when I was very orthodox and a very literal believer, I thought his ideas were looney.

No, the thing that bugs me the most is the literal historical believers miss the beauty that exists in the scriptural accounts because they are so fixated on deciphering the historical code and trying to find out what this word means or how a person can sweat blood or how Christ can use elements from the earth to turn water into wine. They tend to miss the gorgeous story arc that is painted by the Biblical authors. Each of the authors, both in the OT and NT, are trying to convey something greater than a historical record. In the NT, the authors are simply trying to convey the wonder and spiritual edification that came from the people that walked and talked with Christ. The way the author of The Acts leads the story up to Peter's dream is amazing. It's beautifully done in a way to show that Peter is the leader of the church and has the power/authority to make the changes that need to be made in regards to the dream. It's obvious the whole story wouldn't have happened exactly as told in Acts, but the story is told in a way that brings about great faith and meaning beyond a discussion about how Christ can control the weather or how kangaroos ended up in Australia after the flood.

People that strain at the historical gnat are missing the real meaning of the scriptures, and sadly our church curriculum (and many in leadership positions) fall well within this category.

My FIL has a bookshelf filled with all sorts of anachronistic books from a bygone era of the Church and almost every single one of them follow the line of thinking to which you refer. FIL loves these things and really anything that allegedly proves out LDS pop science theories like the age of the earth, "erroneous" carbon dating, etc. He has some wild Cleon Skousen books and other titles which I have shared here from time to time.

Your post reminded me of one particular one that always cracks me up. It is called "Science and Mormonism" and looks like something out of the 1950s. It is a bright blue book and has this cool mid-century modern art style, including a curious pair of arrows that are winding around the cover and eventually pointing to nowhere in particular. The book is a hoot to read and a wacky time capsule that gives people of our generation a glimpse into the genesis of lingering but likely fading LDS "scientific" explanations about things like the Flood, gravity, time, and even cool stuff like dinosaurs and fossil fuel....all the nutty stuff that maybe your grandparents and parents believe about these issues. In a typical literary style of the day, the book ends with a final chapter that warns the reader about being deceived by popular opinions.

I need to dig that thing up. I actually think it would be fun to have those books but then again I would also be embarrassed if someone came to my home and saw them

[Northwestcoug]

Really good discussion going on. Would to God that official church teachings would just begin to consider what you guys are discussing.

[fusnik]

How about:

"Ancient tribe conquers a region and then starts an oral tradition (which is written down centuries later) illustrating how God was on their side every step of the way."?

That doesn't ring true?

Ha.

I knew you didn't believe in Mormonism.

[clackamascoug]

Really good discussion going on. Would to God that official church teachings would just begin to consider what you guys are discussing.

And these are the same guys that make fun of me for even considering The Savior's Infinite Creations, and Atonement, might be dimensional rather than literal.