Mormon Doctrine & Culture Clarification (aka Ask a Bishop)

[Katy Lied]

Post here your questions that you would normally have to bother your bishop about.

Here's my culture question:

My son recently aged out of the 11-year old scouting group. While in that group, he invited a neighbor boy from an inactive family to attend with him. That boy never attends church and gets no support from his family but started going to scouts all the time with our son. We used to swing by his house to pick him up for scouts, and then bring him home an hour later. Last month our son aged out of that group and now attends young men. But every week without fail this kid calls me for a ride to 11 y.o. scouts. I've taken him about 4-5 times, but I don't really want to take him anymore, but I also don't want him to stop scouts (which he loves).

Who do I see about taking this kid to scouts? (There are no other 11 y.o. scouts in our ward, but there are some in our stake). There are no 11 yo scout leaders in our ward- just in our stake.

[Uncle Ted]

Post here your questions that you would normally have to bother your bishop about.

Here's my culture question:

My son recently aged out of the 11-year old scouting group. While in that group, he invited a neighbor boy from an inactive family to attend with him. That boy never attends church and gets no support from his family but started going to scouts all the time with our son. We used to swing by his house to pick him up for scouts, and then bring him home an hour later. Last month our son aged out of that group and now attends young men. But every week without fail this kid calls me for a ride to 11 y.o. scouts. I've taken him about 4-5 times, but I don't really want to take him anymore, but I also don't want him to stop scouts (which he loves).

Who do I see about taking this kid to scouts? (There are no other 11 y.o. scouts in our ward, but there are some in our stake). There are no 11 yo scout leaders in our ward- just in our stake.

The 11 yo scouts meet with the 12-13 yo scout troop in our unit. There is no BSA rule that 11 yo scouts have to meet with a 11 yo troop. I would talk to the scoutmaster and just take the 11 yo neighborhood boy with your son to the 12-13 yo troop. The scoutmaster may ask that a parent (usually the father) to come with the 11 yo scout on campouts. I can't remember if that is a BSA rule or a LDS-BSA rule.

[Paperback Writer]

The 11 yo scouts meet with the 12-13 yo scout troop in our unit. There is no BSA rule that 11 yo scouts have to meet with a 11 yo troop. I would talk to the scoutmaster and just take the 11 yo neighborhood boy with your son to the 12-13 yo troop. The scoutmaster may ask that a parent (usually the father) to come with the 11 yo scout on campouts. I can't remember if that is a BSA rule or a LDS-BSA rule.

I second Uncle Ted's idea and talk to the Scoutmaster and just start taking the kid with your son to YM.

Seperating 11-year olds from other scouts is a LDS Scouting thing (as Uncle Ted points out) and is an ill advised policy at that. It's because 11-years old boys have not been ordained to the AP so they fall under the jurisdiction of the primary. In a non-LDS BSA troop, 11-year olds scouts are part of the overall troop with scouts ranging from 11-18 years of age. New scouts are typically placed in their own patrol with an experienced (14-16 year old) patrol leader. But they usually attend activities and campouts with the entire troop.

I think the LDS policy is that 11-year olds cannot attend campouts with the Deacons. Some local units modify the policy and allow 11-year old scouts attend if their fathers also attend. My stake used to do this but changed back to the handbook policy.

[byu71]

Post here your questions that you would normally have to bother your bishop about.

Here's my culture question:

My son recently aged out of the 11-year old scouting group. While in that group, he invited a neighbor boy from an inactive family to attend with him. That boy never attends church and gets no support from his family but started going to scouts all the time with our son. We used to swing by his house to pick him up for scouts, and then bring him home an hour later. Last month our son aged out of that group and now attends young men. But every week without fail this kid calls me for a ride to 11 y.o. scouts. I've taken him about 4-5 times, but I don't really want to take him anymore, but I also don't want him to stop scouts (which he loves).

Who do I see about taking this kid to scouts? (There are no other 11 y.o. scouts in our ward, but there are some in our stake). There are no 11 yo scout leaders in our ward- just in our stake.

I have to say, I think you need to stick with this young man. However there is a silver lining. The scriptures say you are to leave the 99 to tend to the 1. So if you tend to this 1 you can skip all the other church meetings you want.

[Katy Lied]

I have to say, I think you need to stick with this young man. However there is a silver lining. The scriptures say you are to leave the 99 to tend to the 1. So if you tend to this 1 you can skip all the other church meetings you want.

Yippee!

Thanks for the advice. If we can get the 11 year old to go to scouts with YM, how much YM is devoted to scouting and how much devoted to other things (service, doctrine, spiritual stuff)? If he is looking for mostly scouting activities does YM fit the bill?

[Paperback Writer]

Yippee!

Thanks for the advice. If we can get the 11 year old to go to scouts with YM, how much YM is devoted to scouting and how much devoted to other things (service, doctrine, spiritual stuff)? If he is looking for mostly scouting activities does YM fit the bill?

Typically YM for Deacons on Wednesday nights (or whenever) is devoted to Scouting. Stuff like earning merit badges, planning campouts, service projects, etc. Sunday Deacons priesthood quorum is devoted to doctrine/priesthood lessons from the manual. That's my expereince in YM.

[clackamascoug]

A tear dropped onto my keyboard when I read... "But I really don't want to take him anymore."

[Jeff Lebowski]

I second Uncle Ted's idea and talk to the Scoutmaster and just start taking the kid with your son to YM.

Seperating 11-year olds from other scouts is a LDS Scouting thing (as Uncle Ted points out) and is an ill advised policy at that. It's because 11-years old boys have not been ordained to the AP so they fall under the jurisdiction of the primary. In a non-LDS BSA troop, 11-year olds scouts are part of the overall troop with scouts ranging from 11-18 years of age. New scouts are typically placed in their own patrol with an experienced (14-16 year old) patrol leader. But they usually attend activities and campouts with the entire troop.

I think the LDS policy is that 11-year olds cannot attend campouts with the Deacons. Some local units modify the policy and allow 11-year old scouts attend if their fathers also attend. My stake used to do this but changed back to the handbook policy.

Totally disagree. I think separating the two makes a ton of sense. Spend the first year getting through the TF-SC-FC ranks. Then when you get into the 12-13 year old group, you focus on merit badges, service, and leadership required by Star-Life-Eagle. Furthermore, the bigger kids tend to pick on the 11-yr-olds. Let them have a fun, stress-free year working on basic skills first.

[Uncle Ted]

Totally disagree. I think separating the two makes a ton of sense. Spend the first year getting through the TF-SC-FC ranks. Then when you get into the 12-13 year old group, you focus on merit badges, service, and leadership required by Star-Life-Eagle. Furthermore, the bigger kids tend to pick on the 11-yr-olds. Let them have a fun, stress-free year working on basic skills first.

We separate the scouts out into two patrols: those who are on the "trail to FC" (TF-SC-FC) are in one patrol and those who are on the "trail to eagle" (star-life-eagle) are in another patrol. We have some 12-13 yo's that are not FC. Those scouts are also in the "trail to FC" patrol even though it is mostly 11 yo's. This is how a lot of non-LDS troops do it around here.

As for 11 yo being picked on bullying in any form is not tolerated in the BSA.

[Jeff Lebowski]

As for 11 yo being picked on bullying in any form is not tolerated in the BSA.

Of course not. But it is much easier to prevent/police when you keep them separate.

[Uncle Ted]

Of course not. But it is much easier to prevent/police when you keep them separate.

It hasn't really been a problem for us. I did have a problem with some boys bullying a 14 yo that hadn't advanced to varsity scouts because he has an intellectual disability but I nipped that in the bud pretty fast. I told the bishop that the boy that was heading up the bullying wasn't welcome to come back to scouts.

For the most part the patrols are separate anyway. The ones working toward their FC see some of the fun stuff that the ones working toward their eagle are doing and that seems to give them an incentive to work harder on getting the FC rank. For the most part I was finding the primary was doing a terrible job in getting the 11 yo's scouts prepared. None of the scouts coming out of 11 yo scouts had their FC and had not even gone on a single camp-out. So we just combined the two and the 11 yo's will join the rest of the troop on some (not all) of the campouts. Like I mentioned a lot of non-LDS troops do it this way.

[smokymountainrain]

As for 11 yo being picked on bullying in any form is not tolerated in the BSA.

[Paperback Writer]

Totally disagree. I think separating the two makes a ton of sense. Spend the first year getting through the TF-SC-FC ranks. Then when you get into the 12-13 year old group, you focus on merit badges, service, and leadership required by Star-Life-Eagle. Furthermore, the bigger kids tend to pick on the 11-yr-olds. Let them have a fun, stress-free year working on basic skills first.

Has "the Dude" been correlated by "the Man"? I have a different view having been in a non-LDS troop for my first two years of scouting before my family moved.

Seperating 11 year-olds from Deacons and then Deacons from Teachers and then Teachers from Priests makes for a leader-led program instead of the BSA goal of a scout-led program. The argument is that 11-year-olds will be bullied by Deacons and then the Deacons will be bullied by Teachers. It's a concern but I think its used more as an excuse.

During my first year of scouts, I also spent the first year passing off TF-SC-FC as well as earning several MBs. And the "leaders" teaching me those skills were mostly older scouts. I wasn't bullied, I was mentored. I wasn't stressed at all and had a lot of fun. Even some of the "hazing" of snipe hunts ended up being a lot of fun. I also had some excellent role models in my 15-year old patrol leader as well as other older scouts. I wanted to be like them in a few years and looked forward to the time when I could teach and work with new scouts. It was an honor to be chosen for this.

When I took my 11-year old to Scout camp, he had fun because he could interact with older scouts. Several took him under his wing. But after scout camp, it was back to being only with scouts his same age and learning from leaders only. It wasn't as fun.

I think the church loses a lot with scout-to-scout mentoring because the 11-year olds and the other AP quorums all operate independently. The Deacons look at Scouts as a Deacon only thing and can't wait to graduate to Teachers quorum. I think that would be different if younger scouts were taught and mentored by older scouts and YM/Scouts were viewed as program for 11-18 year-olds instead of seperate Deacon, Teacher, and Priest Quorums.

What I find interesting is my daughter received exceptional mentoring in the YW program because the age groups had to conmbine for many activities due to low numbers. The older YW all seemed to adopt the younger YW and they became a close group. In contrast, that didn't exist with my sons in the YM/Scouts program. Which I think is a correct definition of ironic because scout-to-scout mentorin (a scout led program) is one of the main goals of the BSA (the non-LDS version of it).

[Moliere]

https://www.lds.org/church/news/many-struggles-with-faith-are-based-on-mormon-culture-not-doctrine-professor-says?lang=eng

I find it interesting that an article like this is posted on lds.org, although I find it uninteresting that pretty much no examples were given of instances where it was church culture and not doctrine that were causing faith crises.

While I agree with the premise that I think we lose a lot more people due to the culture of the church, which kind of has a "conform of else" attitude in most places, I'd argue that many members cannot see the doctrine through the culture. Take for instance serving a mission. The underlying commandment is to preach the Gospel, however, everyone will tell you that serving a full-time mission is a commandment for a young man. I don't believe that but I do believe that serving a full-time mission is one of the best ways to fulfill the commandment to preach the gospel. However, I've seen YM leaders preach that serving a mission is the most important thing a kid can do and if they don't do it they are breaking a serious commandment.

I'd also like to find the presentation this Braithwaite guy gave at Education Week to see if he has better insights and/or examples.

[wuapinmon]

https://www.lds.org/church/news/many...-says?lang=eng

I find it interesting that an article like this is posted on lds.org, although I find it uninteresting that pretty much no examples were given of instances where it was church culture and not doctrine that were causing faith crises.

While I agree with the premise that I think we lose a lot more people due to the culture of the church, which kind of has a "conform of else" attitude in most places, I'd argue that many members cannot see the doctrine through the culture. Take for instance serving a mission. The underlying commandment is to preach the Gospel, however, everyone will tell you that serving a full-time mission is a commandment for a young man. I don't believe that but I do believe that serving a full-time mission is one of the best ways to fulfill the commandment to preach the gospel. However, I've seen YM leaders preach that serving a mission is the most important thing a kid can do and if they don't do it they are breaking a serious commandment.

I'd also like to find the presentation this Braithwaite guy gave at Education Week to see if he has better insights and/or examples.

Isn't that "braithwaite guy" one of our own here?