183 Semiannual General Conference Thread

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ive been wondering about that one. I don't think the revision is a big deal. Since that talk was given I've heard the PoF referred to several times in GC and similar venues as "prophetic counsel" or words to that effect. Prophetic counsel can be revelatory too. As I understand the subject, calling something a revelation puts it in an entirely different category and requires a sustaining vote of all the GAs, a vote in GC, etc., like the various Official Declarations that have been added to the D&C. So to me, that the PoF is not included in the D&C doesn't mean it's something I can wisely feel free to ignore. As always, I know others see this differently. Just my opinion.

Straw man alert.

[Tex]

No wonder you're so frustrated.

Ha, with my church? Are you joking?

[Tex]

So somebody who thought and said in 1977 that institutional racism in the LDS Church was wrong. Is he a recipient of revelation or just someone who was wrong and exceeding the scope of his authority? Curious what you think honestly.

I would say anyone who claimed to have received a revelation about the priesthood ban prior to 1978 was outside his authority. But lots of people expressed their opinion on it, and that's a big difference. Isn't that what you do here? Are you claiming revelation from God on the future of gays in the church, or are you just expressing your opinion?

PS. There is one exception to the revelation rule. God does sometimes reveal truth to individuals that he does not reveal to the church. But those people are the type that don't go talking about it. This case is mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

[CardiacCoug]

I would say anyone who claimed to have received a revelation about the priesthood ban prior to 1978 was outside his authority. But lots of people expressed their opinion on it, and that's a big difference. Isn't that what you do here? Are you claiming revelation from God on the future of gays in the church, or are you just expression your opinion?

Sure, I'm just expressing my opinion obviously. No revelation involved.

So what's this you wrote about milquetoast Mormons (see: CardiacCoug) exceeding the scope of authority?

Expressing a personal opinion that differs from a GA isn't "exceeding scope of authority", right?

[Tex]

This is fascinating. If you want to get a tiny glimpse into power struggles that are almost entirely invisible when the GAs present themselves as speaking with a single voice, this is the kind of thing that should get your attention.
...
I'll go out on a limb and say that there is a hell of a lot more diversity of thought among the GAs than the ordinary church member would ever guess.

Why is this going out on a limb? Is this really a surprise to anyone? Have you not heard the apostles talk about the significant discussions and even disagreements they have had over nearly two centuries?

[Katy Lied]

Question from conference:

They mentioned the missionary from Nepal that got called on a mission to India and that he was having a hard time speaking English. Why are missionaries teaching the gospel in English in India and not learning Hindi? I'm very curious about this.

Because they speak many languages in India (I am remembering 33 or so), of which Hindi is a majority language, but there are a lot of places that don't speak Hindi. During the Raj, the Brits set the official government language as english just so they wouldn't have to use multiple languages for all sorts of treaties and local administrative courts. When India gained its independence, they stayed with English so that they could communicate with each other. So most Indians speak english. This is what I remember from my Lonely Planet Travel Guide.

[Harry Tic]

Ive been wondering about that one. I don't think the revision is a big deal. Since that talk was given I've heard the PoF referred to several times in GC and similar venues as "prophetic counsel" or words to that effect. Prophetic counsel can be revelatory too. As I understand the subject, calling something a revelation puts it in an entirely different category and requires a sustaining vote of all the GAs, a vote in GC, etc., like the various Official Declarations that have been added to the D&C. So to me, that the PoF is not included in the D&C doesn't mean it's something I can wisely feel free to ignore. As always, I know others see this differently. Just my opinion.

I think the phrase "prophetic counsel" is interesting. My impression is that it has been gaining traction over the last few years in the church and it's easy to imagine why. On the one hand, it suggests gravitas; the adjective "prophetic" reminds us of the keys held by those who offer it. On the other hand, it makes no claim to be binding upon the membership of the church in a legal sense. The implication is that one may choose to disregard it: to be sure, one may suffer certain consequences for taking it lightly or failing to heed it, but one would not necessarily be subject to church discipline per se for disagreeing with it or not conforming to it. In fact, the phrase is equivocal: it may mean that the counsel itself is prophetic in a kind of Amos 3:7 sense; or it may mean that it is simply counsel given by those who hold prophetic keys (without necessarily implying that the utterance itself is infallible or even inspired in a strong sense).

I think there is a world of difference between presenting the PoF as inspired, "prophetic counsel" and canonizing it as scripture. Obviously, the brethren accept this distinction as well. It would have been pointless otherwise for BKP to alter the language of his conference address.

[clackamascoug]

Question from conference:

They mentioned the missionary from Nepal that got called on a mission to India and that he was having a hard time speaking English. Why are missionaries teaching the gospel in English in India and not learning Hindi? I'm very curious about this.

Sometimes it's not about the mission but the missionary. Would it be better in the long run for this missionary to speak English or Hindi? Apparently they have a need for English speaking missionaries in India, just like Cantonese speaking missionaries in California. Maybe in the Lord's way he's killing two birds with one stone, filling a need, and teaching a young lad how to speak in General Conference in 25 years.

[jay santos]

Because they speak many languages in India (I am remembering 33 or so), of which Hindi is a majority language, but there are a lot of places that don't speak Hindi. During the Raj, the Brits set the official government language as english just so they wouldn't have to use multiple languages for all sorts of treaties and local administrative courts. When India gained its independence, they stayed with English so that they could communicate with each other. So most Indians speak english. This is what I remember from my Lonely Planet Travel Guide.

I didn't think two Indians would ever speak to each other in English, but I was wrong. I asked and was told that when two Indians meet they start in Hindi, but 10% of the time or so have to switch to English to try to communicate because the Hindi dialect is too different or one of them doesn't speak Hindi at all (rare).

[jay santos]

Sometimes it's not about the mission but the missionary. Would it be better in the long run for this missionary to speak English or Hindi? Apparently they have a need for English speaking missionaries in India, just like Cantonese speaking missionaries in California. Maybe in the Lord's way he's killing two birds with one stone, filling a need, and teaching a young lad how to speak in General Conference in 25 years.

I can think of a lot of theories, I was curious if anyone had first hand knowledge of whether or not this is standard practice and why.

[Tex]

So what's this you wrote about milquetoast Mormons (see: CardiacCoug) exceeding the scope of authority?

Expressing a personal opinion that differs from a GA isn't "exceeding scope of authority", right?

I didn't say anything about you exceeding your authority. Is this the statement you're referring to? If not, point me to the correct one.

Which would essentially destroy the church. This is the thing Milquetoasters are unwilling to accept. (see: CardiacCoug)

[CardiacCoug]

This is the one, Tex:

There is no difference. Revelation is revelation. The problem for Milquetoasters is unbelief clouds their ability to discern when they've exceeded the scope of their authority or domain.

[Tex]

I can think of a lot of theories, I was curious if anyone had first hand knowledge of whether or not this is standard practice and why.

I don't know exactly what you're looking for, but I know several American youth going back at least to the 90s that were called to serve in India as English-speaking missionaries.

PS. Didn't I used to have a nickname for you? What was it?

[Tex]

This is the one, Tex:

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but no, I don't think expressing an opinion is the same as claiming revelation.

That said, I think the category of folks I call Milquetoasters are particularly bad at discerning revelation generally, and tend to rely on their own counsel and judgment too much.

[clackamascoug]

I personally kind of like the idea of exploring the theological ramifications of mathematical/cosmological oddities. Granted, some of this stuff sounds pretty weird, but I like the idea of at least trying to think through the big questions in bold ways. That's true to the spirit of JS and BY and hardly anyone does it anymore. And, if they do, they are generally written off as cranks, which they often are.

Nothing in my church experience has been more disappointing than becoming a High Priest and discovering that those famous "High Priests Group discussions" are just tepid rehashes of the same crappy manuals that are used in every other class. I was hoping to get a bit of meat after all these years, some wild and exciting speculation every week along these lines.

Clack, I hereby sustain you as my HP instructor. Seriously, that would be awesome.

3rd Sunday HP instructor. However, all I do is read the questions in the back, correlate the questions to the linked lesson, have someone read a linked scripture, look at the clock and see I have 8 minutes left, ask a couple of questions to the former Stake President, and presto! At the conclusion all the head down sheep say good lesson, and go home and eat.

A couple of us have our own "School of the Prophets" during the Sunday School hour. Even though we're off the books, the Spirit still attends, and we teach each other what's on our mind and in our hearts. It's by far the best thing about Sunday for me.